What Enphase Grid Profile for Radian AC Coupling

Discussion about adding energy storage to grid-dependent inverters using OutBack Power technology
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RobertSR
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Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:28 am
My RE system: Radian 8048a (Firmware 001.006.070), Mate3s (Firmware 001.004.007), FNDC (Firmware 001.001.071), 890AH battery bank, strictly used as a battery backup system to a subpanel of critical loads. Mechanical interlock ability to AC Couple, but that is a work in progress.

What Enphase Grid Profile for Radian AC Coupling

Post by RobertSR »

I have been trying to get Enphase to give me a grid profile for AC Coupling, but I'm not making progress with Enphase support at the moment (I'm on my 3rd reply attempt.)

What are other people using? And would it be possible to have an Outback Engineer work with Enphase to create a dedicated Radian 8048a grid profile?

I need a grid profile that will allow me to AC-Couple IQ7’s (M215s) with my Outback Radian 8048A.

I also have some legacy M215s (not able to use Frequency Watt (FW) power curtailment) using the same grid profile.

My current setup has Enphase inverters connected to my Main Panel for normal sellback to the Grid using the “IEEE 1547 default 2015” grid profile.

My Outback Radian is used strictly for battery backup to a subpanel of critical loads.
I have a mechanical interlock which will allow me to disconnect from the Grid and use the Radian and AC Coupling from my Enphase inverters for an extended grid outage.

I would like a grid profile that allows normal Grid Interactive sellback (like my currently used IEEE 1547 default 2015 profile) but will also use Frequency Watt (FW) power curtailment should I need to switch to AC coupling for an extended Grid outage.

Thanks,

Robert
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Mike Curran
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Posts: 2825
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof (2007/2017):
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 microinverters

Battery systems operate in grid-tied, net metering w/backup mode
All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: What Enphase Grid Profile for Radian AC Coupling

Post by Mike Curran »

Hi Robert - Frequency watt control is an advanced method for your inverter to help maintain grid stability when there are voltage and/or frequency excursions. My understanding is that you can AC-couple your M215s (and IQ7s) without their having frequency watt curtailment capability. They will simply disconnect from your Radian output whenever it raises output frequency in response to high battery voltage.

If you have uploaded grid support settings to your Radian in accordance with your local utility requirements, your AC-coupled microinverters will still behave as described above while your Radian will still provide grid support. Any AC-coupled inverters without this capability will disconnect and not interfere with the Radian's grid support function*. Of course the disconnected AC-coupled microinverters cannot contribute to your grid sellback when this happens.

*Again, my understanding (and to some degree, speculation). I don't use any grid support functions with my systems. I do wonder how the Radian's grid support function interacts with its response to high battery voltage. Seems like they could be at cross purposes.

- Mike
https://ei.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
Ampster
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Posts: 273
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:14 pm
My RE system: 7.9 kW self installed Enphase system NEM 2.0 PTO 9*2021. Skybox, and heat pump/AC system. The Skybox is powered by a 42 kWh pack of LFP batteries and 2kW panels. It is used in self consumption mode for load shifting and backup.
Location: Kenwood, Northern California

Re: What Enphase Grid Profile for Radian AC Coupling

Post by Ampster »

RobertSR wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:42 pm I have been trying to get Enphase to give me a grid profile for AC Coupling, but I'm not making progress with Enphase support at the moment (I'm on my 3rd reply attempt.)

What are other people using? ..........

Have you tried CA Rule 21 which is the same as UL1741SA?
My IQ7s were configured that way by default and work with my Skybox. In order to AC couple they are both connected to the same subpanel. When the grid is up the micros flow through the Skybox. When the grid is down the Skybox is the grid forming device that allows AC coupling to work. I thought I read that your connection scheme is different but in rereading your post I think you accomplish that with a switch or interlock. Correct?
Also, does AC coupling work and your issue is finding a configuration that will sell back?
Use my Skybox in Self Consumption mode to reduce my energy costs, including charging two EV from solar when possible.
RobertSR
Forum Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:28 am
My RE system: Radian 8048a (Firmware 001.006.070), Mate3s (Firmware 001.004.007), FNDC (Firmware 001.001.071), 890AH battery bank, strictly used as a battery backup system to a subpanel of critical loads. Mechanical interlock ability to AC Couple, but that is a work in progress.

Re: What Enphase Grid Profile for Radian AC Coupling

Post by RobertSR »

Mike Curran wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:11 am Hi Robert - Frequency watt control is an advanced method for your inverter to help maintain grid stability when there are voltage and/or frequency excursions. My understanding is that you can AC-couple your M215s (and IQ7s) without their having frequency watt curtailment capability. They will simply disconnect from your Radian output whenever it raises output frequency in response to high battery voltage.

If you have uploaded grid support settings to your Radian in accordance with your local utility requirements, your AC-coupled microinverters will still behave as described above while your Radian will still provide grid support. Any AC-coupled inverters without this capability will disconnect and not interfere with the Radian's grid support function*. Of course the disconnected AC-coupled microinverters cannot contribute to your grid sellback when this happens.

*Again, my understanding (and to some degree, speculation). I don't use any grid support functions with my systems. I do wonder how the Radian's grid support function interacts with its response to high battery voltage. Seems like they could be at cross purposes.

- Mike
Hi Mike,

My current understanding (I will gladly stand corrected if wrong) is that a specific FW curtailment gird profile is required for my Enphase microinverters. (Using my current profile, the microinverters will disconnect at 60.5Hz (slow) and 62.0 Hz (fast), which won’t allow much if any power curtailment, and they need an “Over frequency power limit enabled” flag set to “yes”, similar to Tesla Powerwall profiles.) I haven’t tested this paragraph (it will take a lot of effort to get conditions just right, while having power off on my main panel so I am properly disconnected from the grid – no air conditioning in the middle of summer, ugh.) I was hoping to test just once using a different Enphase grid profile.

The biggest reason I want frequency watt (FW) power curtailment is for a gradual reduction of microinverter power instead of all or nothing. If my load requires 2kw, but the microinverters are supplying 3kw, and my Radian batteries are fully charged, it would be best to curtail the microinverters down to 2kw instead of zero. That way the microinverters are powering my 2kw load, not my batteries.
User avatar
Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2825
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof (2007/2017):
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 microinverters

Battery systems operate in grid-tied, net metering w/backup mode
All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: What Enphase Grid Profile for Radian AC Coupling

Post by Mike Curran »

If my load requires 2kw, but the microinverters are supplying 3kw, and my Radian batteries are fully charged, it would be best to curtail the microinverters down to 2kw instead of zero. That way the microinverters are powering my 2kw load, not my batteries.
I get it now! IMO, with the current "all or nothing" setup, in a grid outage with your batteries fully charged and no place for your AC-coupled power to go, the batteries alone will power your 2kw load, but only as long as it takes for the battery voltage to drop below float, at which point your Radian will resume normal 60Hz output and your micros will reconnect. So I think operating this way would have minimal impact on the life of your batteries, if that is your ultimate concern.
https://ei.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
RobertSR
Forum Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:28 am
My RE system: Radian 8048a (Firmware 001.006.070), Mate3s (Firmware 001.004.007), FNDC (Firmware 001.001.071), 890AH battery bank, strictly used as a battery backup system to a subpanel of critical loads. Mechanical interlock ability to AC Couple, but that is a work in progress.

Re: What Enphase Grid Profile for Radian AC Coupling

Post by RobertSR »

Ampster wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:34 am ...

Have you tried CA Rule 21 which is the same as UL1741SA?
My IQ7s were configured that way by default and work with my Skybox. In order to AC couple they are both connected to the same subpanel. When the grid is up the micros flow through the Skybox. When the grid is down the Skybox is the grid forming device that allows AC coupling to work. I thought I read that your connection scheme is different but in rereading your post I think you accomplish that with a switch or interlock. Correct?
Also, does AC coupling work and your issue is finding a configuration that will sell back?
Hi Ampster,

I'm seeing about 13 different CA Rule 21 xxxx profiles, but I cant see any details at all, just vague summaries. That is part of my problem in that I can't find details on the profiles that are out there.

Yes, my manual interlock forces me to disconnect from the grid, and then allows the Enphase inverters to feed into my Radian backup panel. I have not actually tested the ac coupling yet, hoping to find a Frequency Watt Power curtailment Enphase grid profile before testing.

Do you have the CA Rule 21 version you are using and could you provide a copy of the profile details?

Thanks
Ampster
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Posts: 273
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:14 pm
My RE system: 7.9 kW self installed Enphase system NEM 2.0 PTO 9*2021. Skybox, and heat pump/AC system. The Skybox is powered by a 42 kWh pack of LFP batteries and 2kW panels. It is used in self consumption mode for load shifting and backup.
Location: Kenwood, Northern California

Re: What Enphase Grid Profile for Radian AC Coupling

Post by Ampster »

RobertSR wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:55 am ......Hi Ampster,

I'm seeing about 13 different CA Rule 21 xxxx profiles, but I cant see any details at all, just vague summaries. That is part of my problem in that I can't find details on the profiles that are out there.

Yes, my manual interlock forces me to disconnect from the grid, and then allows the Enphase inverters to feed into my Radian backup panel. I have not actually tested the ac coupling yet, hoping to find a Frequency Watt Power curtailment Enphase grid profile before testing.

Do you have the CA Rule 21 version you are using and could you provide a copy of the profile details?

Thanks
I cannot access that setting on my Enlighten Manager app. I get a 504 Gateway Timeout. I will reboot my computer and see if I can get access. I purchased the Envoy used it has been quirky.

I do not recall setting anything but my IQ7s were purchased in California nine months so I assumed they were already CA Rule 21 compliant. My understanding is Rule 21 and UL1741SA require frequency Watt modulation, whereas the earlier UL1741 was on and off with not modulation. I do not know what the sub settings are but my understanding is that CA Rule was adopted so that the grid operators could modulate the GT inverters. I can't imaging why any of the sub settings would alter any of the basic modulation required by those specs.
If I were in your shoes I would just test them to see if it works. I have done two AC coupling situations with my Skybox and they both worked. One was with a Solaredge and the other with these IQ7s. Most of the issues with AC coupling which I have seen on forums has been the settings on the grid forming inverter. I know that the programming on my Skybox took a while before it could even do AC coupling but it was Rule 21 and UL1741 compliant before that.
NOTE:
I did some research and the default should work. Some of the other choices appear to be tests. I also found that I have to use Enlighten Toolkit to query my IQ7s. Until I do that use the default setting and see if it works.
Use my Skybox in Self Consumption mode to reduce my energy costs, including charging two EV from solar when possible.
Ampster
Forum Guru
Posts: 273
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:14 pm
My RE system: 7.9 kW self installed Enphase system NEM 2.0 PTO 9*2021. Skybox, and heat pump/AC system. The Skybox is powered by a 42 kWh pack of LFP batteries and 2kW panels. It is used in self consumption mode for load shifting and backup.
Location: Kenwood, Northern California

Re: What Enphase Grid Profile for Radian AC Coupling

Post by Ampster »

I may have not been correct in my earlier post.

I updated the Enphase Installer Toolkit and it turns out I did not have a default grid profile selected. It took about 15 minutes for the Toolkit software to upload 872 profiles before I could set one of them as the default. I chose the first CA Rule 21 which was labeled "CA Rule 21 201709 w/ VW (1.04). If you use the Toolkit to view details it says it is a 15 sec reconnect time.
I hope that helps. I will have to test my system again by dropping the grid to see how it responds when I change some loads. Unfortunately my big loads are not on the critical loads panel so it may take me a while to test. I probably need to do it in the morning as my batteries are charging because that is the biggest load during the day. Remember, I have a Skybox with an integrated charger versus the Radian with a separate charge controller so your process of testing AC coupling may be different.

I am also not seeing the grid profile from the PC Enlighten Manager web access.
Use my Skybox in Self Consumption mode to reduce my energy costs, including charging two EV from solar when possible.
User avatar
Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2825
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof (2007/2017):
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 microinverters

Battery systems operate in grid-tied, net metering w/backup mode
All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: What Enphase Grid Profile for Radian AC Coupling

Post by Mike Curran »

FWIW - 14 of my M215s, the ones that are AC-coupled to my Skybox output, have a separate Envoy I purchased used on eBay. Although that Envoy shows it is provisioned with the IEEE 1547 2015 default grid profile, it will not "push" that (or any other) grid profile to those 14 micros. After a long string of back and forth emails with Enphase tech support, I got this:
The 14 microinverters are reporting to an IEMU gateway. The Grid Profile cannot be pushed using this gateway hence no grid profile can be applied to those microinverters. The only solution would be to purchase a new Envoy and have the 14 microinverters provisioned to it so that the grid profile can be set.
They have also told me
Without the grid profile being set the inverters may not perform at its highest efficiency and also there is the chance of higher failure rate. Also, failure due to grid event will not be covered under warranty. 
However, their support forum implies that the M215s have
factory-installed (grid support) settings
I'm currently waiting to hear what those are. Otherwise I will disconnect these 14 from AC-coupling to make them normal grid-tied micros - they'll communicate with the other Envoy and get assigned the IEEE1547 profile (I've tried this already). I'll still have 14 DC-coupled panels connected to my Skybox so not really a big deal - the loads on the Skybox output are minimal.
https://ei.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
Ampster
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Posts: 273
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:14 pm
My RE system: 7.9 kW self installed Enphase system NEM 2.0 PTO 9*2021. Skybox, and heat pump/AC system. The Skybox is powered by a 42 kWh pack of LFP batteries and 2kW panels. It is used in self consumption mode for load shifting and backup.
Location: Kenwood, Northern California

Re: What Enphase Grid Profile for Radian AC Coupling

Post by Ampster »

Mike Curran wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:24 pm FWIW - 14 of my M215s, the ones that are AC-coupled to my Skybox output, .......... Otherwise I will disconnect these 14 from AC-coupling to make them normal grid-tied micros - they'll communicate with the other Envoy and get assigned the IEEE1547 profile (I've tried this already). I'll still have 14 DC-coupled panels connected to my Skybox so not really a big deal - the loads on the Skybox output are minimal.
When the gid is up your M215 micros are already performing as GT micros. It does not matter whether they are connected through the Skybox passthrough connection or direct to your main panel it is still the grid that they see when the grid is up. Technically AC coupling only comes into play when the grid is down because when the grid is up the grid presents an infinite load and the micros can go full on with no limitations. In a grid down situation the Skybox becomes the grid forming device and then has the job of matching AC coupled GT inverters output to the loads. That is the only time it uses its own frequency , otherwise the Skybox follows the grid frequency. I suspect the Radian is the same.

My understanding is that M215 micros do not comply with UL1741SA but they comply with the older UL1741. That means they cannot modulate but can only respond to frequency Watt by turning off or on. It would probably depend on when they were purchased. I believe IEEE1547 and UL1741 are similar specs from two different entities. I tend to refer to UL1741 and UL1741SA because I am more familiar with that spec and I know that my components are UL1741SA. Also in California UL1741SA is synonymous with CA Rule 21. Of the 800 plus profiles available to the Enphase there are only IEEE1547 and CA Rule 21 profiles available.
Use my Skybox in Self Consumption mode to reduce my energy costs, including charging two EV from solar when possible.
User avatar
Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2825
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof (2007/2017):
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 microinverters

Battery systems operate in grid-tied, net metering w/backup mode
All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: What Enphase Grid Profile for Radian AC Coupling

Post by Mike Curran »

Understood - I got that.
https://ei.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
Ampster
Forum Guru
Posts: 273
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:14 pm
My RE system: 7.9 kW self installed Enphase system NEM 2.0 PTO 9*2021. Skybox, and heat pump/AC system. The Skybox is powered by a 42 kWh pack of LFP batteries and 2kW panels. It is used in self consumption mode for load shifting and backup.
Location: Kenwood, Northern California

Re: What Enphase Grid Profile for Radian AC Coupling

Post by Ampster »

@RobertSR
We haven't heard how your test went and if you had success with AC coupling? In the meantime, I saw on another forum where a user who was having difficulty with AC coupling some old Enphase micros tried the Enphase profile of "SAM-60-120-1304 ver. 2" to make them work. Apparently that is one of the more tolerant profiles and solved a problem he was having.
Use my Skybox in Self Consumption mode to reduce my energy costs, including charging two EV from solar when possible.
RobertSR
Forum Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:28 am
My RE system: Radian 8048a (Firmware 001.006.070), Mate3s (Firmware 001.004.007), FNDC (Firmware 001.001.071), 890AH battery bank, strictly used as a battery backup system to a subpanel of critical loads. Mechanical interlock ability to AC Couple, but that is a work in progress.

Re: What Enphase Grid Profile for Radian AC Coupling

Post by RobertSR »

Ampster wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:54 am @RobertSR
We haven't heard how your test went and if you had success with AC coupling? In the meantime, I saw on another forum where a user who was having difficulty with AC coupling some old Enphase micros tried the Enphase profile of "SAM-60-120-1304 ver. 2" to make them work. Apparently that is one of the more tolerant profiles and solved a problem he was having.
It's a busy time of year on the farm. I'll post an update when I know more, but it's likely to be weeks out. I'm still researching grid profiles and might try another attempt with Enphase.
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