Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

ClaudeJr
Forum Member
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:21 pm
My RE system: Outback FP1 FX3048T, 8 ea 6v Deep Cycle Rolls Surrette 428ah Bat, 10 ea 320w panels, Generac EcoGen 6k propane backup generator, 48v System, Mate3

Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by ClaudeJr »

Two (2) 3.8 -48v 75ah Simpliphi batteries were delivered and sat for about 5 months while I was in travel status. Upon return I attempted commissioning, however, once connect they would not turn on my FP1 system. OB informed me that a somewhat large current draw is required upon startup of inverter which I guess batteries were not able to supply due to having sat for a period of time. OB directed me to a list of chargers (Integration Guide) that they recommend. The only one available is for an E bike. Any ideas on how I can charge my PHI batteries for installation.

Also, I noticed on the Mate3s there are 3 batt types too choose from...FLA, AGM and Gel however, in OpticsRE you can choose Simpliphi. Once I'm able to connect batteries should they be configured thru OpticsRE
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 7742
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

Two Phi battery blocks most definitely will start an FX3048T.

After sitting for 5 months, they likely need to be fully charged.

You can charge them with your FX3048/FM80 but its going to take a bit of "sleight-of-hand" to get started.

The very first step will be to get everything prepared.

The Phis need electrically identical cables to wire the two in parallel. That generally means 2 pairs of identical battery cables connected to bus bars that in turn have the two battery leads from the FP1 connected.

Something like these: https://www.invertersupply.com/index.ph ... _id=199268

If the Phi battery is ready to connect, we can talk next steps.
ClaudeJr
Forum Member
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:21 pm
My RE system: Outback FP1 FX3048T, 8 ea 6v Deep Cycle Rolls Surrette 428ah Bat, 10 ea 320w panels, Generac EcoGen 6k propane backup generator, 48v System, Mate3

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by ClaudeJr »

I'm using the bb2 bar for the battery connections then to the FP1 + and - cable leads. I'll need to schedule a time to get my neighbor over to assist. What would the next steps involve ?
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 7742
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

OK. Next steps.

Prior to switching over to the Phi battery, its helpful to calibrate the FM80, FX3048T, and FNDC. With lithium, 0.1V more or less turns out to be a lot. Its best that the devices' internal voltmeters read as true as possible. If these are not familiar operations, ask.

1) PREPARING TO SWITCH BATTERIES
This is the first tricky bit. It entails preparing the batteries for switch-over. The action will "jump start" the inverter with the AGM battery.

• Start the generator and place the system in Bypass.
Set the two breakers linked by red plate into bypass mode. House power will be fed from the generator, and the inverter will be idle.

• Disconnect the PV Array
Set PV Array circuit breaker OFF

• Set Charger Mode = OFF.

• Set Inverter AC Input circuit breaker OFF

• Set Inverter Main circuit breaker OFF
The inverter should be shut down at this point.

• Open inverter pastic front panel and disconnect Remote Temperature Sensor cable.
Replace front panel.

NOTE* DO NOT charge lithium battery with RTS in place.

• Switch Phi Battery block circuit breakers Off.

• Connect main battery cables to the Phi battery.

• Using automotive jumper cables, connect the AGM battery to the main battery cables at the terminals connected to the Phi battery.

SLIGHT-OF-HAND #1 The AGM battery will be used to "jump start" the inverter.

NOTE*
After reconfiguring the devices in step 2, the AGM will be disconnected and the Phi battery enabled.
BE SURE to have the batteries connected in correct polarity. You are working without a net here, wrong connections will destroy batteries.

• Set Inverter Main Circuit breaker On.
The inverter should start.

2) CONFIGURING BATTERY CHARGING

The FX, FM, FNDC, and Mate need to be configured for charging and using the Phi battery.

All programming can be done via Mate or Optics, whichever you choose. (If using Optics, the battery type can be set to SimpliPhi, but it won't make any difference to the FP1/FX, it isn't "smart enough" to use the info.

The Phi/OB Integration Guide has the battery charging specs. A quick read-through will show them.

• Programming the FM80
- Battery Charging menu
Absorb Voltage = 56.4V
Absorb Time = 0.1H
Float Voltage = 54.0V
EQ Voltage = 56.4V
EQ Time = 1.0H
Auto EQ interval = 0
End Amps = 0
Current Limit = 75A

• Programming the FX3048T
Screenshot_20220512-180255_Firefox.jpg
- AC Input and Current Limit
Inverter charger can be set to maximum input amps. IIRC - 14A?

*NOTE* Battery Protection - Low Voltage Cut Off - cannot be properly set on the FX3048T, it doesn't go high enough. To keep the battery from being accidently over discharged, an external configuration via the FNDC will be needed. Subject for another post.

• FNDC Programming
20220513_021137.jpg
• Mate Programming
20220513_080027.jpg
Note Global Charger Control, currently disabled in the image. Phi recommends a maximum charge current of 75A for your battery. Should Solar charging and Inverter charging be active at the same time and producing maximum output, they could exceed the 75A limit. Global Charger Control can manage the chargers to limit their combined output to 75A. The FM80 must be set to Grid Tied = Y in order to enable the control logic. Global Charger Control = Enabled to enable the feature.

3) SWITCHING BATTERIES
This step will disconnect the AGM battery, then enable the Phi battery. The inverter will retain "keep alive" charge in its internal power capacitor for about 5 seconds, so the switch over should be one fluid motion.

The system should still be in Bypass with the generator providing house power.

• Disconnect the AGM battery.
Remove the positive jumper cable clamp from the main battery cable terminal.

• Set the two Phi Battery Block disconnect switches ON


Alternate approach

• Set the two Phi Battery Block disconnect switches ON

• Disconnect the AGM battery.
Remove the positive jumper cable clamp from the main battery cable terminal.



The inverter should fully "light up* on the status LEDs. If so, fully remove the jumper cable.

If not, there may not be enough charge in the Phis to maintain voltage. Set the disconnect switches OFF. Reconnect the jumper cable.

(**If the Phi's are truly too weak to keep the inverter on at idle, they are at or near zero state of charge. There's a "MacGyver" charging method if you care to try it. I'm not going to detail it here.***)

4) INITIAL CHARGING
Charging is simplest via the Inverter Charger alone. Leaving the FM80 idle (as set in step 1).

• Set the AC Input circuit breaker ON.

• Press the Mate Charger button.
Set Charger Mode = ON
Select Start Bulk Charge.

The inverter charger should start charging the battery. Continue charging until the battery voltage rises to or above 56V. This could take several hours.

During charging, ignore the FNDC State of Charge reading on the Mate. It will not be accurate until the battery is fully charged.

5) STARTING THE SYSTEM ON THE PHI BATTERY

• Switch the system out of Bypass (the two circuit breakers ganged with the red plate.)

• Set AC INPUT = DROP
Set using Mate hard key

• Shut down generator

• Set PV Array circuit breaker ON.




WALK THROUGH ALL THESE STEPS BEFORE STARTING AND ASK FOR CLARIFICATION ON THOSE THAT ARE NOT CRYSTAL CLEAR. THERE IS LITTLE ROOM FOR ERROR.

I HAVE LAID OUT THESE STEPS TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY, BUT MAKE NO CLAIM THAT THEY ARE SAFE TO CARRY OUT IN YOUR SYSTEM. I TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY SYSTEM DAMAGE. IT IS STRICTLY YOUR DECISION AND RISK TO USE THE INFORMATION PROVIDED.
Last edited by raysun on Sat May 14, 2022 11:56 am, edited 16 times in total.
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 7742
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

ClaudeJr wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:58 pm I'm using the bb2 bar for the battery connections then to the FP1 + and - cable leads. I'll need to schedule a time to get my neighbor over to assist. What would the next steps involve ?
BB2s are great.

Partial steps above.
*NOTE* DO NOT MAKE THE CHARGING CHANGES UNTIL READY TO CHARGE THE PHI BATTERY.
Familiarize with the changes so the transition goes quickly and error-free.
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 7742
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

OB directed me to a list of chargers (Integration Guide) that they recommend. The only one available is for an E bike.
What is the charge voltage of the E bike charger? What's its rated current output?
ClaudeJr
Forum Member
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:21 pm
My RE system: Outback FP1 FX3048T, 8 ea 6v Deep Cycle Rolls Surrette 428ah Bat, 10 ea 320w panels, Generac EcoGen 6k propane backup generator, 48v System, Mate3

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by ClaudeJr »

It is the Waouks model WA240...AC input 100-120 volts and DC Output 54.6 volts - 4 amp Charger...it states it can be used for Li-on batteries however the cord configuration is a 3 prong power cord and the other end is what you would connect to battery (see attachment)

The neighborhood solar guy is suggesting we piggy back the Simpliphi batteries off the existing FLA batteries just to get them charged enough to put them in play. I'm a bit concerned about that as the documentation state...do not mix batteries. I would just like to charge the Simpliphis up and then put the in play and this charger according to Simpliphi's documentation (integration guide) should do the trick...I don't see it happening
Waouks Charger.jpg
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 7742
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

Mixing battery types isn't recommended, but you could probably get away with connecting the AGM in parallel with the Phi for a short while to add some charge. Its the "MacGyver" method.

It could be incorporated into the steps I outlined, and would make disconnecting the AGM while operating less timing sensitive, as the Phi battery would always be attached.

In fact you could do exactly as I outlined, just prior to disconnecting the AGM, turn the Phis on. The "Make before Break" isn't likely to stress the batteries.

I've used this exact method a couple of times to get a system running on lithium batteries with low charge.
ClaudeJr
Forum Member
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:21 pm
My RE system: Outback FP1 FX3048T, 8 ea 6v Deep Cycle Rolls Surrette 428ah Bat, 10 ea 320w panels, Generac EcoGen 6k propane backup generator, 48v System, Mate3

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by ClaudeJr »

GM. I'm looking at performing my upgrade this morning...I looked for calibration instructions and how to's...could not find any that made sense...you mentioned, calibrating my FX, FM and FNDC before switch...can you bring me up to speed on how
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 7742
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

ClaudeJr wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:37 am GM. I'm looking at performing my upgrade this morning...I looked for calibration instructions and how to's...could not find any that made sense...you mentioned, calibrating my FX, FM and FNDC before switch...can you bring me up to speed on how
FM80 calibration: viewtopic.php?t=15400
I suggest the hardware method.

FNDC calibration:
https://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/ ... p_note.pdf
The FNDC is the least important to calibrate ahead of time. If its within 0.4V I'd leave it until after the conversion. (You will have enough other stuff going on than fussing with removing/replacing the FNDC.)

FX calibration:
Screenshot_20220515-075155_Firefox.jpg
In Optics, or via Mate locally. The inverter can only be calibrated to "ballpark" values in 0.4V increments.
ClaudeJr
Forum Member
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:21 pm
My RE system: Outback FP1 FX3048T, 8 ea 6v Deep Cycle Rolls Surrette 428ah Bat, 10 ea 320w panels, Generac EcoGen 6k propane backup generator, 48v System, Mate3

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by ClaudeJr »

the switch went well...batteries are charging however, i can not set inverter to 52v for LBCO...it only goes to 48v
ClaudeJr
Forum Member
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:21 pm
My RE system: Outback FP1 FX3048T, 8 ea 6v Deep Cycle Rolls Surrette 428ah Bat, 10 ea 320w panels, Generac EcoGen 6k propane backup generator, 48v System, Mate3

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by ClaudeJr »

Also, what should I set the absorb end amps for my system at...
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 7742
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

ClaudeJr wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:39 pm Also, what should I set the absorb end amps for my system at...
The examples I posted were calculated for your battery capacity.

FM80 End Amps = 0
FNDC Charged Return Amps = 3

Oops. Except for:
FX EQ Voltage = 56.0V
ClaudeJr
Forum Member
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:21 pm
My RE system: Outback FP1 FX3048T, 8 ea 6v Deep Cycle Rolls Surrette 428ah Bat, 10 ea 320w panels, Generac EcoGen 6k propane backup generator, 48v System, Mate3

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by ClaudeJr »

Almost there...the low battery cut off for inverter only goes up to 48v... documentation states setting it at 50v...is there a work around for that ?
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 7742
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

ClaudeJr wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 2:52 pm Almost there...the low battery cut off for inverter only goes up to 48v... documentation states setting it at 50v...is there a work around for that ?
Yes. Get everything else set up first.

It involves the FNDC and FX Inverter ON/OFF terminals.

Suggest making that a separate project.
ClaudeJr
Forum Member
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:21 pm
My RE system: Outback FP1 FX3048T, 8 ea 6v Deep Cycle Rolls Surrette 428ah Bat, 10 ea 320w panels, Generac EcoGen 6k propane backup generator, 48v System, Mate3

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by ClaudeJr »

everything else is currently setup...just need too fine tune the settings
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 7742
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

Its going to take a bit to create a guide.

Step #1 Calibrate FNDC.
ClaudeJr
Forum Member
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:21 pm
My RE system: Outback FP1 FX3048T, 8 ea 6v Deep Cycle Rolls Surrette 428ah Bat, 10 ea 320w panels, Generac EcoGen 6k propane backup generator, 48v System, Mate3

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by ClaudeJr »

I unplugged FNDC and once batteries are fully charged 54.6v (almost there), I'll plug FNDC back up...would that be considered "calibrated" for the FNDC.

Also, ref RTS...I'm in Hawaii where temp does not fluctuate much...do you think disconnecting is necessary or could I just roll it up and lay in battery box
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 7742
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

HAVING THE RTS PLUGGED IN HAS THE POTENTIAL OF DESTROYING YOUR LIFEPO BATTERY.

I suggest unplugging it so temperature compensated charging is disabled.

Aloha from Kahuku, Ka'u, Hawaii Island
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 7742
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

54.6v (almost there)
54.6V is the old Phi specification for "long Absorb", initially specified at 1H, then modified to 2H. My testing took 1:27H to complete.

It is not the currently recommended profile.

The latest spec is:
Absorb voltage = 56.4V
Absorb Time = 0.1H

With the FNDC unplugged, the net current at charge termination cannot be tracked. In the strange world of LiFePo4 charging voltage will indicate "sort of full charge", but only end amps indicate "really full charge". Close is OK - for Horseshoes and Hand Grenades. Its slightly less OK for calibrating battery capacity and State of Charge.
ClaudeJr
Forum Member
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:21 pm
My RE system: Outback FP1 FX3048T, 8 ea 6v Deep Cycle Rolls Surrette 428ah Bat, 10 ea 320w panels, Generac EcoGen 6k propane backup generator, 48v System, Mate3

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by ClaudeJr »

Roger that...RTS cable unplugged
ClaudeJr
Forum Member
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:21 pm
My RE system: Outback FP1 FX3048T, 8 ea 6v Deep Cycle Rolls Surrette 428ah Bat, 10 ea 320w panels, Generac EcoGen 6k propane backup generator, 48v System, Mate3

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by ClaudeJr »

Got it...ok, let me know how to go about calibrating the devices...and also the LBCO for the inverter
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 7742
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

ClaudeJr wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 4:46 pm Got it...ok, let me know how to go about calibrating the devices...and also the LBCO for the inverter
The calibration procedures are listed above.

viewtopic.php?p=95210#p95210
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 7742
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

LOW BATTERY CUT OFF USING THE FNDC

The FX inverter LBCO parameter cannot be set to the 50V cutoff specified for the Phi battery.

The FNDC's voltmeter can track battery voltage, and its relay programmed to switch from a closed (ON) state to an open (OFF) state. The FNDC can control the FX Inverter ON/OFF state by connecting the FNDC Aux terminals to the FX Inverter ON/OFF terminals with a pair of wires.
20220515_135803.jpg
FNDC Aux Relay programming
20220515_141832.jpg
FX Inverter ON/OFF terminals.
Note: The jumper must be removed for the Inverter ON/OFF terminals to be active.
ClaudeJr
Forum Member
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:21 pm
My RE system: Outback FP1 FX3048T, 8 ea 6v Deep Cycle Rolls Surrette 428ah Bat, 10 ea 320w panels, Generac EcoGen 6k propane backup generator, 48v System, Mate3

Re: Upgrading From FLAs to Simpliphi

Post by ClaudeJr »

Great, I changed Absorb specs on FX, FM and FNDC from 54.6v to 56.4v. I also plugged FNDC back up. I will investigate "trim pot" and using FNDC for LBCO for inverter in the morning. I have learned a lot today thanks to you Raysun and my neighbor. Thanks so much for having the patience...I'll pick up this project in the morning.

oh, one more...the 12v aux port in the fm80...I put my voltmeter on it and it registered 0.0v...it has my two wire generator connected...what could be wrong with that
Post Reply