Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

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HawaiianDrummer
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Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by HawaiianDrummer »

Aloha, I had this working with old gas gen but that gen died years ago so wire to flex net DC and aux terminals have been disconnected. Now I have a recently new Kubota diesel GL 11,000 generator and a new Kubota auto start module.

Problem is when I hook the 2 relay wires up again from the Flex net DC to the Inverter aux terminals + and - set to remote, "the gen start glow indicator lamp is always ON" So generator always stays on, no matter what commands I send from Mate3s.
Is something broken? Thanks for any help with this matter. David

I also need help again to know what wires go to the SPDT relay terminals #85, #86, #87 and #30. The tech. help online from the parts store I bought the Kubota auto start module from (Maddox Industries) technician Steve Maddox keeps telling me it only needs 1 signal wire to start and stop with the other lead to ground??? But sends me this photo of the wires attached to my kind gen set.
IMG_20211215_153924.jpg
HawaiianDrummer
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by HawaiianDrummer »

Aloha, After researching posts made here in the past one reply to a post on this subject by Kent Osterberg on this FNDC problem of latch relay always remaining in on state. This is probably my problem to date.
So I will try not using the two leads from FNDC relay terminals and just connect the master inverters Aux out + and - set to remote to generator terminals 30 and AC, BUT which gets the positive from the inverter aux out and which gets the negative, to gen terminal #30 and terminal AC?
Thanks for your help if any one knows. David
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by Mike Curran »

Without some sort of wiring schematic it's impossible to answer your question. If you give us an exact part/model number for the Maddox remote start module and for the generator itself maybe someone can find the applicable drawings.
https://ei.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
HawaiianDrummer
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by HawaiianDrummer »

Kubota (2).png
This schematic of Kubota diesel gen
I cant find schematic for kubota generator start module, the only part # from maddox industries where I bought it from showed part #AUTOSM
I am still going to hook it up today without having the Flexnet DC wired to inverter aux remote and see if it works. thanks, David
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by JRHill »

Don't use the FNDC to start your generator, in my humble opinion. All programmable things being equal it should make no difference which device you use other than the relay needed for the inverter or CC. But in reality there is a difference and I don't know why. Its just that the inverter aux seems to work better (reliability). I started with the CC aux and had problems. I thought to do the FNDC as I wouldn't need the relay cause all I needed was an open/close circuit. But when I went with the inverter all cleaned up. So if you can reconfigure to the inverter I would do so.

Also, if you have a two wire control to your generator the start/run should just be an open/closed circuit. If with the FNDC no relay should be required as its relay is open or closed. If with the inverter or CC they go 'high' with only a very few watts of 12vdc and you use a little automotive relay. 'High' (12vdc) closes the relay for start/run and 'low' (0vdc) opens the relay (normal position). Theoretically on a two wire, only one, the positive, should be needed. But I'd NEVER do that because there are two terminals on every Aux for a reason. Use both of those. And ALWAYS fuse the connections on both sides of the relay. The little inline round cartridge fuses are best. You only want a 1/4 amp fuse and that's probably to big. The inline spade fuses like in your vehicle are not what you want as they don't go to a low enough current protection for the device or your generator.
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by Mike Curran »

From your schematic and your earlier comments, it looks like you need a relay contact wired between terminals 30 and AC, corresponding to "ON". I'm assuming that the starter switch (or maybe the Maddox start module) takes care of the additional preheat and start contact closures, but that's a guess.
Screenshot_20211220-153515_Samsung Internet.jpg
As JRHill says, if you use your inverter's aux output you'll have to add another small 12 volt relay, like this: .
20211220_154640.jpg
You don't want to connect the 12V aux output from your inverter directly to terms 30 & AC, that could break something.

I'm surprised your supplier isn't more helpful.
https://ei.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by HawaiianDrummer »

Aloha, success sofar

Thanks JR Hill BUT Mike Curran gets my Gold medal award (Because he illustrated the connections from inverter to relay to generator) That made it understandable for a "slower thinker" than most like me.
I did try just the inverters aux with suggested connections but it still did not start the generator SO I did hook the leads back up from the Flexnet DC relay out to those connections at the inverter's Aux and 12v. SPDT relay as illustrated by Mike Curran and voila' it worked when I sent the command with Generator manual Start and later it stopped when I sent generator manual stop. I left it in generator auto. So next I will see if the generator starts automatically when my battery voltage gets down to my 2 minute start voltage of 50.8 VDC tomorrow morning.
Thanks for everyone's help, I will follow up. David
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by JRHill »

HawaiianDrummer wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:54 pm Aloha, success sofar

Thanks JR Hill BUT Mike Curran gets my Gold medal award (Because he illustrated the connections from inverter to relay to generator)
If my input was not clear then my hand writing and a diagram would be much worse. So I agree, Mike should get the award.
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Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 microinverters

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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by Mike Curran »

Sorry JR, but we're sharing it!
https://ei.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by HawaiianDrummer »

Aloha, A cloudy rainy day and night here in Hawaii and the battery level got to 51 percent after 7 P.M. and my Kubota diesel generator "AUTO STARTED" when the battery percentage setting!!! Now I will get to see how long it runs before shutting off automatically. I know all parameters must be net before that happens. So time will tell! :')
Thanks again for helping me that was my best Christmas present! David
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by JRHill »

Wonderful news.

I'm sure some of us would like a sample audio of your drumming.
HawaiianDrummer
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by HawaiianDrummer »

Aloha, OK this will be my last post to this subject.
This is a total success, gen turned on and after only 2 3/4 hrs. it shut off automatically too!!!
And the next morning also ran automatically and shut off when parameters were met again! Now I have to go buy more diesel fuel.
Thanks to all, David
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by HawaiianDrummer »

No! Not again! Well my Flex Net DC started the generator those two times but never again. unless I go into flex Net DC program and initiate Auto ON. But it never shuts the generator off. Today I tried just voltage start settings in flex Net DC and zeroed out the percentages but still nothing AND I removed 12v relay from inverter wiring...doesn't make a difference with or without it. tried inverting logic on FNDC but no difference. So what changed? ( 50 or more settings but to no avail)
Really need expert help! thanks again David
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by raysun »

I don't use AGS so until now have refrained from adding any churn to the conversation, but the solution being used doesn't seem to work, and after studying the AGS documentation, from my admittedly shallow understanding of the configuration I can't see how it would possibly work for what you are trying to accomplish.

I'm going to ask some very basic, clarifying questions. Please bear with me.

• It's mentioned that the FNDC and its relay parameters are being used to control the AGS functions. Is this correct?

Parameters on this menu are being programmed to actuate the FNDC relay?
Screenshot_20211230-152306_Firefox.jpg
If yes, what values are being used?

What is the FNDC relay wired to?
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by HawaiianDrummer »

Aloha, I wrote a long explanation, then the draft disappeared, So the short answer is today I inverted the logic of the Flex net DC and tested with both voltage and percentages and they both got the generator to turn on. I removed the SPDT relay completely , it was not doing anything. Now I will see later when it starts the gen how long it will run. I set it to turn on at 60 % and shut off at 76 % to get it through till the sun shines!
I have the voltage to turn gen on at 50 VDC with a 2 minute delay. I also matched all settings for Inverter, Mate3s auto gen settings and Flex net DC settings. Flex net DC wires go out directly to Kubota auto start module terminal 30 and AC terminal. Thanks David
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by raysun »

OK. Let us know how it goes.

FWIW, I did considerable bench testing of the FNDC relay control logic. It has a wrist in it I wasn't expecting initially and caused a good deal of head-scratching over its behavior until i figured it out.

We can discuss if interested, and have some time to play with it.
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by HawaiianDrummer »

Aloha, Great news to have had the generator auto start and stop twice last night! The 1st time was at 10:30 pm and ran for a couple hours and then again at 1:30 am and ran for an hour or so. Thankful I can sleep again without worrying about losing power in the middle of the night! Thanks again for all the help (who would have thought after 13 years that I am still figuring things out) :lol: David
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by HawaiianDrummer »

Aloha, Jan. 11,2022 Up Date: Mostly all well, Gen auto starts by percentage settings every day (early morning) and auto stops by percentage met.
But twice now over past couple of weeks The inverter setting changes from USE AC In to DROP AC In. I have to manually change the Mate3s Inverter key on right of the display back to USE AC in.
Why is this happening? I'm so paranoid about this that I am now locking the door to the solar shed to rule out someone tampering with the settings!
Has any one out there experienced this! Thanks David
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by MJSullivan56 »

raysun wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 8:00 pm FWIW, I did considerable bench testing of the FNDC relay control logic. It has a wrist in it I wasn't expecting initially and caused a good deal of head-scratching over its behavior until i figured it out.
Happy to hear a synopsis of this behavior when you get done with it. Thanks!
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by JRHill »

HawaiianDrummer wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:10 pm Aloha, Jan. 11,2022 Up Date: Mostly all well, Gen auto starts by percentage settings every day (early morning) and auto stops by percentage met.
But twice now over past couple of weeks The inverter setting changes from USE AC In to DROP AC In. I have to manually change the Mate3s Inverter key on right of the display back to USE AC in.
Why is this happening? I'm so paranoid about this that I am now locking the door to the solar shed to rule out someone tampering with the settings!
Has any one out there experienced this! Thanks David
I use AGS continuously. If I want to end the run early I go to AC Input and Drop the connection, count to 30, and go back the Gen and hit Off. Always, after AC Input > Drop and I shut the generator down it will automagically revert to Use. But I do have to manually press Gen > Auto so programming resumes.

For your issue, leave it alone. Of course it will go to Drop during shut down. That IS how it shuts down. But give it a while. Once the run is done under normal conditions AC Input should automagically change to Use so it is ready for the next AGS run. Make sure Gen > Auto is reset if you changed it to stop a run.
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by raysun »

MJSullivan56 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:13 am
raysun wrote: Thu Dec 30, 2021 8:00 pm FWIW, I did considerable bench testing of the FNDC relay control logic. It has a wrist in it I wasn't expecting initially and caused a good deal of head-scratching over its behavior until i figured it out.
Happy to hear a synopsis of this behavior when you get done with it. Thanks!
**Autoincorrect turned "Twist" into "Wrist"**

In a nutshell:
The FNDC Aux is essentially a latching relay. Initially the relay is in an indeterminate state and is not active. In order to "set" the latch the trigger must be equal or greater than Voltage High or SOC High value. The relay will then enable (close) until the the trigger value falls to or below the Voltage Low or SOC Low value, at which point the relay disables (opens). The order of evaluation precedence is High Battery, then SOC High.
Invert Logic reverses "Close" and "Open" in the Set/Reset action.

In order to use the relay for Low Battery Cut Off:
Screenshot_20220113-100432_Firefox.jpg
In this config the relay will "enable" (close) when the battery voltage is at or above 52V - for two minute interval in this case, set by the High Enable Delay. (This must happen before the low voltage is evaluated.) When the battery voltage falls to 48V or below, the relay will disable (open) immediately as the Low Enable Delay is 0. (In practice, a Low Enable Delay of 2 minutes or more would be helpful to avoid triggering on a short, heavy discharge.) Note SOC values are set in such a way as they will not be evaluated.

In order to use the relay for High Battery Cutoff
20220113_101646.jpg
Note: Invert Logic = Yes.
Open and Close are swapped.

In this config the relay will "disable" (open) when the battery voltage is at or above 58V. (This is the tricky part of using the relay for HBCO, the high battery voltage must happen before the relay is set and low voltage is evaluated.) When the battery voltage falls to 54V or below for 2 minutes, the relay will enable (close) as the Low Enable Delay is 2. Note SOC values are set in such a way as they will not be evaluated.
Last edited by raysun on Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:26 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by JRHill »

Please, whether you use the FNDC, inverter or charge controller, please don't forget to include an in line fuse, like 1/4 amp (still big) on the Aux trigger. The inverter and charge controller are really low amperage 12vdc and are supposed to have some over current protection but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have a fast blow fuse in there, esp with a relay. I have one on both sides of the relay. The equipment on both sides is expensive to repair for a few $ for an inline fuse on both sides. For the FNDC only one needed.
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by HawaiianDrummer »

Aloha, Update: Flex net is still turning on gen when settings are met, that makes me happy! After each auto start of gen the system charges batteries till settings are met by the percentage and runs from 30 minutes to an hour or so. BUT unfortunately many times the setting for USE AC IN changes to DROP AC IN! I am very exhausted trying to determine every night if I hear the gen running and then checking my local intranet to see if the gen is running or not...THEN only sometimes I can connect to the mate 3s to view the current status. When it shows charging I am happy but when it does not show gen charging and the percentage is below my setting, I can't sleep because the gen might be running and wasting diesel fuel $$$ if the setting changed to DROP AC IN.

I have even tried setting up a wireless security cam to view the Mate 3s display BUT my solar shed is about 75 ft farther than my Adorcam/t-mobile hotspot will connect to, so that didn't work (I'm thinking of buying a "wired" security cam to be able to view the status.)
"a side note is that I have guest house renters here 6 months out of ea year so I want to minimize unneeded gen noise"
It really is bad that the Mate 3s won't refresh after you connect the first time. It NEVER connects again.
Side note #2 I never could resolve getting OPTICSre set up online so I can't control anything without going outside from a couple hundred feet to make changes. Customer service did me wrong, hope they get better at helping customers like me.

Sorry to rant on but I live off grid here in Hawaii and I property manage all utilities and I need help "only" with the Outback Power system's ability to consistently refresh it's wireless display. Thanks for any help. Mr. David Hryniuk
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Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by raysun »

Aloha from Ka'u.

Sorry to hear your still chasing gremlins in your system. If you do get the camera working, make sure you set the field of view close to ground level. I think Hamakua must have Menehune.

I can't speak to the intricacies of AGS, I don't use it.

However, I use LAN networking to access my system, via the Mate, as well as WAN networking to access Optics for my system and a handful of others.

Unless there is something outright defective with the Mate in your system, IME, pretty much all communication issues have external sources - mostly network issues. That's not to say the Mate is the most robust device ever plugged into the ethernet, because it isn't, however, if the LAN/WAN is solid, the Mate behaves as expected. If the LAN/WAN is "dirty" the Mate will react to it - sort of Canary in the Coal Mine fashion.

Can you describe your LAN in a bit more detail? Maybe we can find some items to look into.
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Location: Ninole, Hawaii

Re: Aux out indicator yellow light always on to start gen

Post by HawaiianDrummer »

Aloha, Thanks for your quick reply and concern.
We use to have a Sprint hotspot and it performed very well with up to 10 devices allowed. It has top be kept up stairs in the main house, for the guest house to have access. Now T-Mobile has taken over and replaced our sprint, supposedly capable of 16 devices allowed. But it does not hold up to its claims, we use our hot spots on our phones to allow guest house top have needed bandwidth to use.
For approximately the last 10 years I have used only a local intranet I set up through a wired connection from mate to a D-link router in solar shed over a hundred feet from main house with a guest house in-between that then connects wirelessly to a Netgear range extender in main house that I can log into with my phone or PC. It most always shows up but it will never refresh to log in again to view mate
Years ago I tried to set up Outbackre but never made progress getting it set up because Outback power systems customer support must be understaffed to give any replies for help, thus that is why I use my local intranet to view Mate 3s.
That's how it is set up but the non refreshing is what's frustrating but more importantly the intermittent DROP AC is my main disappointment. Thanks again, David
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