Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

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Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by chrisski »

Does anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

This seems like it will let the batteries fully charge every morning before selling power to the grid. This seems to be what I want, but I'm not sure I want my inverter turned off every night at midnight. If I turn my inverter off, I have no power at my house. I'm sure it doesn't mean that, but want to see if anyone has tried it?

From the MAte3S guide
"Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control — if grid-interactive inverters are present on the system, this control allows their grid-interactive
function to be turned off at midnight each night. This function allows the charge controllers to complete a charge cycle at the
beginning of the next day before the system begins selling. It prevents the batteries from remaining at or below the Sell voltage for
extended periods without receiving a full charge."
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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by ralphday224 »

Looks like just the interactive function (sell or buy) are inactive, not just inverting for power. Try and see?
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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by fcwlp »

Search on "Auto Grid-Tie Control" and you will find a number of posts. I have found it best to leave it disabled in grid-tied systems as it caused unexpected issues.
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Mike Curran
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- 14 Trina Solar 270W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger), installed 3/5/24 (replaced original 2019 Talesun DC array)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W (manually switched during outages), Enphase M215 microinverters

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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by Mike Curran »

I use it and it works fine for me. The inverter isn't turned off, only "grid-interactive" functions are, which for me means no selling to grid until charge parameters are met. I suppose if you're using some of the more advanced functions like grid support then those would be turned off as well. I don't lose power over night, grid continues to pass through my inverters to my loads.

This is important for me since I don't otherwise cycle my battery.
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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by chrisski »

Mike Curran wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 1:27 pm I use it and it works fine for me. The inverter isn't turned off, only "grid-interactive" functions are, which for me means no selling to grid until charge parameters are met. I suppose if you're using some of the more advanced functions like grid support then those would be turned off as well. I don't lose power over night, grid continues to pass through my inverters to my loads.

This is important for me since I don't otherwise cycle my battery.
Do you know what these charge parameters are to hook it to the grid again? I'm trying to get my batteries to 100% before selling to the grid. I prefer a voltage reading or low tail current to a SOC% to hook back to Grid Interactive.

Prior to charging in the morning, my SOC % as read by the Outback is 100%, but the battery indicators and voltages put it at around 50%. Right now, I'm using a grid tie sell voltage of 53.2 (around 80%). Does not take my battery very long to get to 53.2 in the morning once the MPPT starts sending real power to the batteries, so the grid does start selling before my batteries are charged. I'm assuming this 53.2 the Outback does not distinguish if its resting or charging, just looking for a votlage.
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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by raysun »

I'm assuming this 53.2 the Outback does not distinguish if its resting or charging, just looking for a votlage.
This is true, and one of the pitfalls of using voltage to trigger battery events, especially for LFP.
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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by chrisski »

I guess my question would be, Does your Outback track SOC fairly accurately?

On a smaller 2.5 kw, 13.5 kWh build for my RV, the Victron shunt is great for monitoring. Took a little tweaking. For a tiny portable solar generator, an AiLi shunt does a good job of tracking.

EDIT: I am trying Auto Grid "Tie Control Enable" for tomorrow. This could be what I was looking for to tweak my system.
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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by raysun »

The FNDC, while "hard wired" for lead acid, does an adequate job tracking State of Charge for a lithium ferro phosphate battery, especially if the battery is charged fully regularly, where the meter automatically syncs.
I use both FNDC and Victron BMV712 (long story, I'm sure I've made about 10,000 posts about it), and they tend to agree within 2%, good enough for me. My longest session at partial state of charge was 28 days. The two meters drifted apart by 5%. Still not bad.
The FNDC shines when Auto Charge Termination Control is enabled, precisely terminating the "Absorb" phase when the battery is full (as indicated by the settings on the Battery Charging menu.)
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Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Trina Solar 270W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger), installed 3/5/24 (replaced original 2019 Talesun DC array)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W (manually switched during outages), Enphase M215 microinverters

Battery systems operate in grid-tied, net metering w/backup mode
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Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by Mike Curran »

Do you know what these charge parameters are to hook it to the grid again? I'm trying to get my batteries to 100% before selling to the grid. I prefer a voltage reading or low tail current to a SOC% to hook back to Grid Interactive.
For my 24V FLA battery, (edit: with VFXR inverters) they're what's programmed into the FNDC:
Screenshot_20240624_095527_Samsung Internet.jpg
And for my 48V Simpliphi LiFePO4 battery (Skybox), they're shown here.
Screenshot_20240624_095917_Samsung Internet.jpg
Skybox programming doesn't use the term "charge parameters met". For a grid-tied system like mine, every day Skybox (via PV) takes battery voltage up to the absorb setting and holds it there for 10 minutes, before charging stops, and then selling to grid can begin. There isn't any need to "enable auto grid-tie control", it's done automatically if you're in grid-tie operational mode.
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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by chrisski »

"Enable Auto Grid Tie Control" did not work. The battery did not charge to full and then enter go back to grid tie. The battery charged to the sell back voltage, and then sold back.

I can't post pics now, but my
-"Enable Auto Grid Tie Control" is indicated as selected on the MAte 3S screen.
-My charge parameters on the "DC flex net" are Battery Ah 420; Charged Voltage 54.4; Charged time 15 minutes; Charged Amps1; Charge Factor 95%
-My sell voltage is 53.2 on the Radian Inverter.

The battery only reached a max of 53.6 volts today and should have went back to 54.4 before selling to the grid. Also, started selling to grid seems to start at teh same time.
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My RE system: Outback - Garage roof (2007/2017):
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- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 24 (2x12) 235W Lightways panels with Enphase M215 microinverters plus 6 - 275W Talesun panels, also with M215s, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Trina Solar 270W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger), installed 3/5/24 (replaced original 2019 Talesun DC array)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W (manually switched during outages), Enphase M215 microinverters

Battery systems operate in grid-tied, net metering w/backup mode
All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by Mike Curran »

If you have "Charge Termination Control" enabled in the Mate3s "Global Charge" settings, try disabling it.
Screenshot_20240624_203158_Samsung Internet.jpg
I know this may seem counterintuitive since this option is described as
Enable Charge Termination Control — allows the battery charging to be stopped for all inverters on the system, once the charging parameters of the FN-DC have been met.
but this may be why charging stopped prematurely.
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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by raysun »

Mike Curran wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 5:36 pm If you have "Charge Termination Control" enabled in the Mate3s "Global Charge" settings, try disabling it. Screenshot_20240624_203158_Samsung Internet.jpgI know this may seem counterintuitive since this option is described as
Enable Charge Termination Control — allows the battery charging to be stopped for all inverters on the system, once the charging parameters of the FN-DC have been met.
but this may be why charging stopped prematurely.
The Event History page in OpticsRE will show the charge progress, including Charge Parameters Met. Does the time of that event coincide with the system behavior?
Screenshot_20240624_143848_Chrome.jpg
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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by chrisski »

Mike Curran wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 5:36 pm If you have "Charge Termination Control" enabled in the Mate3s "Global Charge" settings, try disabling it. Screenshot_20240624_203158_Samsung Internet.jpgI know this may seem counterintuitive since this option is described as
Enable Charge Termination Control — allows the battery charging to be stopped for all inverters on the system, once the charging parameters of the FN-DC have been met.
but this may be why charging stopped prematurely.
Well Mike thanks. I think I did not activate Grid Tie Control in the right place. I Just enabled it in this screen like you pictured. I'm confident this will work tomorrow.
Mate 3S Global Charge Control.jpg
Yesterday when I activated it for the first time, I pressed the wrong button in the Mate Modes Screen. When I did this it only made sure Grid TIe was turned on, not disabled with no option for automatic. I pressed the drop down menu.
Grid Tie Enable.jpg
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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by chrisski »

Did not fully charge the battery.

When I "enable auto grid tire control" through optics RE through the mate in the global charge control setting, the inverter did shut off at midnight, turned on as soon as the MPPT sent a charge, but immediately started sending that to the load and the grid, and did not change the charging pattern.

I see a post that says to "enable auto grid tire control" through the FlexNet Screen, but this option is not accessible remotely and I will need to check this when I go home.
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- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 24 (2x12) 235W Lightways panels with Enphase M215 microinverters plus 6 - 275W Talesun panels, also with M215s, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Trina Solar 270W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger), installed 3/5/24 (replaced original 2019 Talesun DC array)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W (manually switched during outages), Enphase M215 microinverters

Battery systems operate in grid-tied, net metering w/backup mode
All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by Mike Curran »

Does your device history show "Charge Parameters Met"? If so then maybe your charge parameters aren't set correctly.
Screenshot_20240628_121702_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
And are your charge controllers set to "grid-tie" mode? This will boost the float voltage setting up to the bulk setpoint as described here:
Screenshot_20240628_121017_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by chrisski »

Thanks Mike.

- nothing about charge parameters being met. It does bounce between float and absorb/bulk. Voltage stays in the 53s and low 54 is the bulk voltage.
-for the grid tie setting, I can’t find that in my MPPT settings in Optics, so will check this when I get home.
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My RE system: Outback - Garage roof (2007/2017):
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 24 (2x12) 235W Lightways panels with Enphase M215 microinverters plus 6 - 275W Talesun panels, also with M215s, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Trina Solar 270W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger), installed 3/5/24 (replaced original 2019 Talesun DC array)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W (manually switched during outages), Enphase M215 microinverters

Battery systems operate in grid-tied, net metering w/backup mode
All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by Mike Curran »

chrisski wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2024 11:12 am-for the grid tie setting, I can’t find that in my MPPT settings in Optics, so will check this when I get home.
It's on the Misc menu of the Mate3s Charge controller settings
Screenshot_20240628_165459_Samsung Internet.jpg
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https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by chrisski »

Mike Curran wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2024 1:57 pm
chrisski wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2024 11:12 am-for the grid tie setting, I can’t find that in my MPPT settings in Optics, so will check this when I get home.
It's on the Misc menu of the Mate3s Charge controller settingsScreenshot_20240628_165459_Samsung Internet.jpg
THank you. FOund it just where you said it would be and switched from disabled to enabled on both my MPPTs.
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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by chrisski »

Now "Enable Auto Grid Tie Control" works, but my batteries are not charging more than 1 kw/r.
Auto Grid Tie Enable.jpg
This slow battery charging is something that is "NOT" caused by "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control" but I have noticed when charging through the MPPT with the inverter on in "Grid Tie Mode" "Use" and "Drop."

If anyone notices anything these are my Charge Settings
Mate 3 S Battery Charging & Inverter Battery Charging & Flex Net DC Charging & MPPT FM 100 Charge Settings
Charge Settings.jpg
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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by chrisski »

When I charge from the Grid Power through the inverter, the power flows fine. I'm thinking this is an MPPT setting I'm missing.
Inverter Charge From Grid.jpg
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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by chrisski »

And finally, the fortress Battery Settings
Fortress Battery Settings.jpg
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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by raysun »

It's things like this that make me grateful for the simple off-grid lifestyle. Someone higher up the food chain is going to need to weigh in.
A couple of things that raise some curiosity:
• The FNDC Battery Charging parameter values look somewhat unorthodox. Where did they come from?
• I notice battery temperature. Is a Remote Temperature Sensor installed? If so, Temperature Compensated Charging is enabled by default. LFP must not be charged using TCC.
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Mike Curran
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My RE system: Outback - Garage roof (2007/2017):
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 24 (2x12) 235W Lightways panels with Enphase M215 microinverters plus 6 - 275W Talesun panels, also with M215s, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Trina Solar 270W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger), installed 3/5/24 (replaced original 2019 Talesun DC array)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W (manually switched during outages), Enphase M215 microinverters

Battery systems operate in grid-tied, net metering w/backup mode
All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by Mike Curran »

Well, mine works and one of your settings (that I noticed) is different. You have Float Coordination disabled, I have it enabled. I doubt this is the cause but might be worth trying enabling it. In the meantime we'll keep looking. Report back.

Edit: Also noticed you have max charging amps set to 80A (DC). Your eFlex batteries can each take 15A AC, times 4 batteries is 60A, times 120V (at least - could be 240) is 7.2kW. Converting to DC that's 7200/50V = 144A DC. So maybe increase your charging limit to 140A DC. Again, probably not the issue...

Edit 2: Are you sure you have more than 1kW available from your array, that early in the morning? I see from your power flow diagram that charging starts between the 5 and 6 a.m. hours...
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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by chrisski »

Mike Curran wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 3:31 pm Well, mine works and one of your settings (that I noticed) is different. You have Float Coordination disabled, I have it enabled. I doubt this is the cause but might be worth trying enabling it. In the meantime we'll keep looking. Report back.

Edit: Also noticed you have max charging amps set to 80A (DC). Your eFlex batteries can each take 15A AC, times 4 batteries is 60A, times 120V (at least - could be 240) is 7.2kW. Converting to DC that's 7200/50V = 144A DC. So maybe increase your charging limit to 140A DC. Again, probably not the issue...

Edit 2: Are you sure you have more than 1kW available from your array, that early in the morning? I see from your power flow diagram that charging starts between the 5 and 6 a.m. hours...
For the limit on the inverter global charge control, I bumped that to 160 amps. Thanks.

With The 1 kW you see below, the pic was takes at 10:30 am and the inverter is still in pass through mode. I may have typed something wrong in the other posting. I stayed in "Grid Tie Enable" with the inverter displaying pass through until lunch, when I manually took it out and put the batteries in a charge cycle from the grid for the invert. Batteries immediately started charging with 7 kW. Since I bumped the Inverter global charge control up to 160 amps, hope to see the battery charging go up tomorrow.
Auto Grid Tie Enable.jpg
For reference, this is the amount of power the panels put out at the same time the day prior with "Enable Grid Tie Control" not enabled, with same weather conditions today, so I would expect that at 8 am battery charging to reach to 2.5 kW, and at 9 am, 3 kW, and at 10 am 6 kW
Not Enabled.jpg
As far as the float not enabled, in the tech data for the fortress battery, it says not to leave float eneabled on the inverter unless the inverter is the primary way to charge the battery. I am charging (at least trying to) charge mine from the MPPT. In the MPPT, Float enable is not an option so seems always on.
Inverter Charging and MPPT Charging.jpg
I also did not realize until today the charging options in the inverter section are for the AC to DC charger internal to the inverter for the batteries.
raysun
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Re: Anyone use "Enable Auto Grid-Tie Control?"

Post by raysun »

One thing I notice is the GS and FM Absorb Voltages are 0.2V different. In order to set charger priority, the general prescription is a 0.4V difference, with the priority charger (FM) set to the higher value. The reason for the 0.4V "delta" is due to the inverter's voltmeter having 0.4V resolution. If the difference is less than 0.4V the voltage based priority will be indetermininant.
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