FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

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jeffminsc
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FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by jeffminsc »

I have seen many posts about this issue. WOW your batteries are at 100% no...no they are not. I have been an outback power customer for years now. There are 2 products that have given me problems. the first is the Mate and the second is the FNDC. I did the switch to lifepo4 batteries about a year ago. I have a large bank 50kWh. I use HBX mode almost all the time. I use what I can from the solar I make and let the grid handle the rest. I keep at least 40% of my battery for just in case and it has saved my bacon many times. The biggest problem with the jump to 100% is every time it does it it throws off the true state of charge. I then at some time babysit shut off the inverter to make sure that the batteries get to 100% so that the FNDC will show the correct state of charge....for a while then bam back to another jump to 100%.
Outback Please fix this your customers want this fixed
I know you can do it you are a bunch of smart people second to none in the business don't let the little things drive people away from your products.
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Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by provo »

jeffminsc wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:32 pm The biggest problem with the jump to 100% is every time it does it it throws off the true state of charge.
Not sure I understand this "jump to 100%". What conditions cause this "jump" in your system?
jeffminsc
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Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by jeffminsc »

If you do a search for jump to 100% you will see many people have this problem. To answer your question, I am not sure what happens for this jump to occur. Usually, the battery is at a high state of charge around 90% or so when this happens, I have seen it happen 1 time at 85%. The days since full do not go back to 0 so it did not meet charge parameters. If I knew then what was causing this jump then maybe if it was a setting, I could change it and I could fix it. This has also happened when I had FLA batteries, so I don't think the change in battery type has anything to do with it. As you can see in the picture below in one hour my batteries went from 86% to 100% that would be in my case 7Kwh in the batteries. I cannot make that much power in an hour in February.

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raysun
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Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by raysun »

We're off grid, so HBX isn't a function we use, however our lithium battery is in use 100% of the time.

We employ the FNDC as our primary DC monitor, and it works well. We also use a Victron BMV700 monitor. The two units provide a high degree of concordance.

For lithium batteries, the FNDC has two shortcomings:
• Peukert's Constant fixed for lead acid chemistry. The PC=1.15 is somewhat higher than the LiFePo4 nominal PC=1.05. On discharge, the FNDC tends to read low. The reading typically lags the Victron by 1-2%.
• FNDC "Float Correction". I believe this is the "jump" you are referring to. Another legacy of lead acid chemistry. Many years ago, this was explained as a battery "safety feature" when the FNDC doesn't think the charging profile can achieve 100% SoC. It does, as you point out, cause a disparity between reported SoC, and some lesser actual SoC.

However, the above is not the only source of misalignment between reported SoC and "true" SoC. All "coulomb counting" monitors, FNDC and Victron included, are subject to drift over time. An extended period of partial State of Charge will leave the metering at some level of error. What the magnitude of the error will be is subject to complex interaction of factors that won't be detailed here.

The operational solution will be. Sync the meter(s) at true 100% SoC. Finding 100% SoC for a lithium battery is a trivial exercise, given the cells' behavior at full charge - they stop accepting charge current. The anodes will appreciate stopping short of that "full stop" condition, so when the charge current falls to a reasonable rate - say 2% of the C20 AH capacity - the cells can be considered fully charged. This is best accomplished at a constant voltage, so an "Absorb" stage fits the bill.

When I had to use the resources of a test lab in my former life, the morning ritual was to calibrate all metering. Some were quite delicate, and fussy, and would literally consume 2 hours of calibration time for every hour of measuring. Thank the powers that be we don't need that level of precision for battery monitoring, but a regular meter sync is the best way to avoid the operational condrums you decry.

Though our metering is never off more than 2-3%, even after relatively extended periods, we give ourselves a 10% cushion. If 20% SoC is the target discharge floor, we intervene at 30%. No drama involved.

Our record span for monitoring without sync was 28 days. At the end, metering was reading 4.5% low (derived by the additional amount of "put back" charge required.)

Of course, you are free to operate your system in the manner you see fit, but the reality is a small operational adjustment can occur far more quickly, and yield better results, than wishing for Outback to develop an update to the FNDC. Just sayin'.
jeffminsc
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Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by jeffminsc »

Thanks for your reply! I enjoyed reading it. I don't mind a bit of drift. The sudden jumps is what I do not understand. The float correction you are talking about do the Charge Controllers need to be in float mode? I would like to understand this more if you could shed some more light on it for me.
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Mike Curran
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- 14 Trina Solar 270W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger), installed 3/5/24 (replaced original 2019 Talesun DC array)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
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Battery systems operate in grid-tied, net metering w/backup mode
All self-designed and self-installed
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Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by Mike Curran »

As you can see in the picture below in one hour my batteries went from 86% to 100% that would be in my case 7Kwh in the batteries.
So if a 14% increase in SOC equates to 7kwh, does that mean you have a 50kwh (7kwh÷14%=50kwh) battery? At 12 volts that means your battery is rated at 50kwh÷12V= 4,000Ah. Seems unbelievable unless there's something wrong with my math...
https://ei.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
jeffminsc
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Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by jeffminsc »

I just updated my profile. I understand your confusion. Yes I do have a 50KW of battery storage.
raysun
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Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by raysun »

jeffminsc wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:02 pm Thanks for your reply! I enjoyed reading it. I don't mind a bit of drift. The sudden jumps is what I do not understand. The float correction you are talking about do the Charge Controllers need to be in float mode? I would like to understand this more if you could shed some more light on it for me.
I'd like to understand it more myself. Unfortunately, the logic behind this "feature" never made sense to me. The engineer who explained it, got his information from the engineers who designed it. All are long gone to other pursuits.

No, the Charge Controllers need not be in Float mode.

I'm assuming, while Charged Parameters Met flag is not set, the 100% SoC flag has some other "behind the scenes" properties. I've watched this for years, trying to suss out the external stimuli at least, with only checkered success. I've seen it occur most frequently, as you've noted, with SoC in the 90s, a moderate amount of charge current, and a sudden largish discharge. Not that the observation sheds much light.

I've assumed a posture of not thinking about it by making sure charging drives the CPM flag to be set. The 9A@56.4V Charged Return Amps that is my battery's spec for full charge is the true "standard candle" by which I measure meter accuracy, and precision.

My (unbidden) suggestion. Get a Victron SmartShunt and hook it in series with the FNDC shunts (make it "1st in line" at the Battery Negative terminal.)
20220224_100006.jpg
Charging and battery SoC displayed on Victron BMV700 via the VictronConnect app and FNDC via the Mate Web app.

$135.00 for the SmartShunt, Bluetooth enabled for VictronConnect on smartphones.

I was initially concerned that having two meters would only add confusion, but it actually works quite well for me.
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Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by provo »

Now you guys have piqued my curiosity :grin: ... I've never seen this float correction jump, in 11 years with Rolls FLA's and nearly one year with SimpliPhi.

How would I make it occur in my system, or is this something that nobody knows when or why it happens?

Edit -- sorry, since it's an FNDC problem I can't claim 11 years with Rolls, only a couple years!
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Mike Curran
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- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
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Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 24 (2x12) 235W Lightways panels with Enphase M215 microinverters plus 6 - 275W Talesun panels, also with M215s, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Trina Solar 270W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger), installed 3/5/24 (replaced original 2019 Talesun DC array)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W (manually switched during outages), Enphase M215 microinverters

Battery systems operate in grid-tied, net metering w/backup mode
All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by Mike Curran »

provo wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:09 pm Now you guys have piqued my curiosity :grin: ... I've never seen this float correction jump, in 11 years with Rolls FLA's and nearly one year with SimpliPhi.

How would I make it occur in my system, or is this something that nobody knows when or why it happens?

Edit -- sorry, since it's an FNDC problem I can't claim 11 years with Rolls, only a couple years!
Same here but maybe because neither of my grid-tied systems seldom cycles SOC (say that 3 times fast) below 99%.
https://ei.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
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Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by raysun »

Same here but maybe because neither of my grid-tied systems seldom cycles SOC (say that 3 times fast) below 99%.
😆

Not to put too fine a point on it Mike, but in order for the monitoring logic to make a jump during charging, it has to, you know, have room.
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Mike Curran
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My RE system: Outback - Garage roof (2007/2017):
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- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 24 (2x12) 235W Lightways panels with Enphase M215 microinverters plus 6 - 275W Talesun panels, also with M215s, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Trina Solar 270W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger), installed 3/5/24 (replaced original 2019 Talesun DC array)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W (manually switched during outages), Enphase M215 microinverters

Battery systems operate in grid-tied, net metering w/backup mode
All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by Mike Curran »

Jumped from 99% to 100% today
Screenshot_20220301-095429_Samsung Internet.jpg
as usual.
https://ei.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
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Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by raysun »

Mike Curran wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:55 am Jumped from 99% to 100% todayScreenshot_20220301-095429_Samsung Internet.jpgas usual.
🤣
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Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by HawaiianDrummer »

Aloha, regarding your jump to full charge issue. I compensated this, by setting the time longer at full charge lets say 10 minutes or more if needed at full charge then if a real clear BRIGHT SUN gets the charge up high for a minute or so then gets cloudy again quick it will not jump to full. At least this helps me. good luck, David
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Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by pss »

I looked at the thread topic headline. Life too short to read the entire thread. I have used FNDC for 5 years with FLA batteries. What I have learned is that you can rely on the FNDC to count the amps going into and out of your battery bank quite reliably and if you input the correct settings, they will match very closely your battery bank capacity. My bank is 40,000 watts. An SOC of 80% correlated with 10 kW load shown. And its linear.

Remember, the FNDC is calibrated by making certain your batteries are fully 100 percent charged and this is best done by voltmeter readings on the battery cells, nothing else. Then you remove the ethernet connection from the FNDC to your outback hub. Wait a few seconds, plug back in and the SOC should read 100%.

As for FNDC voltages, forget about it as the device is not really able to be calibrated using a meter and changing the pots. You have to make certain your shunts are properly installed, your FNDC settings are correct in Optics or on Mate and should have a fairly reliable SOC. But as to how good this works for lithium, I don't know as I don't have lithium except in my car. Others here would know this.
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Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by raysun »

I use an FNDC, in concert with a Victron BMV700. Both agree quite closely in counting coulombs, and even deriving SoC for the most part with my Lithium battery. I do enjoy the benefit of frequent sync at a known 100% state of charge, so that's helpful. On occasion of extended partial SoC the FNDC tends to drift a bit low - in the 1 - 3% range. The longest interval between sync was 28 days. The FNDC was "off" by about 4.5% at the end of that time.
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Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by pss »

See, the FNDC does work!
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Mike Curran
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My RE system: Outback - Garage roof (2007/2017):
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 24 (2x12) 235W Lightways panels with Enphase M215 microinverters plus 6 - 275W Talesun panels, also with M215s, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Trina Solar 270W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger), installed 3/5/24 (replaced original 2019 Talesun DC array)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W (manually switched during outages), Enphase M215 microinverters

Battery systems operate in grid-tied, net metering w/backup mode
All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by Mike Curran »

pss wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 10:58 amI looked at the thread topic headline. Life too short to read the entire thread.
So true, in so many threads. :grin:
https://ei.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
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Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by crandal »

I also have experienced the mysterious situation where the SoC goes from 89% to 100% in a single jump. I wonder, does having battery balancers installed have any effect on how the system would see battery voltage? I got this letter from KilowVault a few months ago that was just one step away from saying "don't use our battery balancers". I got the feeling that someone had done something stupid with a balancer, and melted a battery or started a fire or something.
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Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by Solarmusher »

I have 4x battery monitors on my 400Ah Volthium LFP bank: Bogart Trimetric, Midnite Whizbang Jr, Victron Lynx shunt (with Peukert), and BMS via Victron Cerbo GX or windows directly.
Conclusion, they are all wrong including the Victron lynx shunt (wrong amps/wrong voltage), but its Soc is about right on the Victron GX display.
The only one you can trust is your BMS readings...
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Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by coolness »

Mike Curran wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:09 pm
As you can see in the picture below in one hour my batteries went from 86% to 100% that would be in my case 7Kwh in the batteries.
So if a 14% increase in SOC equates to 7kwh, does that mean you have a 50kwh (7kwh÷14%=50kwh) battery? At 12 volts that means your battery is rated at 50kwh÷12V= 4,000Ah. Seems unbelievable unless there's something wrong with my math...
You may have set to low a charge factor
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Re: FNDC A bunch of money for a bad product

Post by coolness »

Mike Curran wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 6:55 am Jumped from 99% to 100% todayScreenshot_20220301-095429_Samsung Internet.jpgas usual.
My Fexnet DC wasn't calibrated correctly I had to re calibrate it manually voltage was off as were the shunts now it's about 98% accurate and it also solved the jump to 100% problem immediately
I'm on the demo site
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