SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

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raysun
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My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

There's a lot of discussion around fully charging SimpliPhi batteries, and reaching Outback Charged Parameters Met state. Most of the discussion is scattered throughout other posts, as a tangential thread to the post subject. Perhaps we can make this thread focused on this topic exclusively. (Since nearly all of us have developed poor forum discipline of wandering off topic and polluting threads, expect that behavior on this thread to earn a virtual rap on the knuckles from Sister Mary Elephant's steel-edged ruler. PLEASE stay on topic, shall we?)

If we can describe our systems, battery charging dynamics, and results - organized on this thread - perhaps we can figure out why some systems reach full charge / CPM regularly, and others don't.

Though not strictly necessary, a full charge / CPM does have benefits, notably: Maximizes battery capacity; and Syncs the FNDC State of Charge metering.

Step 1: Describe one's system.
• Battery model(s), voltage and capacity
(SimpliPhi only please.)
• Inverter model(s) and charging parameters.
• AC Input source(s)
• Solar array wattage @ STC
• Charge Controller model(s) and charging parameters.
• Mate model and Global Charge parameters
• FNDC Battery Charging parameters

Step 2: List Charge Cycle examples
• Where CPM is reached.
The Event Log entries showing Start Bulk, Start Absorb, End Absorb, and Charged Parameters Met is the most uniform information. A graph of the day's charge/discharge is also helpful.
• Where CPM is not reached.
Same data.
• Any narrative that sheds light on the particular charge cycle.
raysun
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Posts: 7762
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My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

My System:
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 @ 450AH
2 VFXR3048A-01 parallel stacked 14AAC charging current for each
Honda EU7000is generator. 120V @ 30A
16 440W REC Alpha solar panels in 2 arrays of 4P x 2S. 7040W @ STC
2 FM80
Mate3s
FNDC

Charging parameters:
Inverters
Screenshot_20220114-091205_Firefox.jpg
Charge Controllers
Screenshot_20220114-091347_Firefox.jpg
FNDC
Screenshot_20220114-091544_Firefox.jpg
Mate3s
Global Charger Control = Enabled
Maximum Battery Charge = 180A
Auto Charge Termination Control = Enabled
raysun
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Posts: 7762
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

Charged Parameters Met
Screenshot_20220114-092245_Firefox.jpg
Screenshot_20220114-092319_Firefox.jpg
1/13/22 was a clear morning then partly cloudy day with light rain. I did not expect to reach full charge, but did so at 1533 (typically reach full charge around 1230).
provo
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Posts: 1101
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My RE system: 16 Evergreen EC-120 (4 strings, total 1920W)
2 SimpliPhi 3.8-m-24V (150Ah each)
One FM80
One VFXR3524A
Hub 10
Mate3s
FNDC
Honda EU3000is generator
Location: Sierra foothills

Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by provo »

My System:

Two SimpliPhi 3.8-24 @ 150Ah ea. for 300Ah total
One VFXR3524A, 7AAC max. charging current (3-5AAC typ.)
120VAC (one leg) PG&E utility grid connection
Sixteen 120W Evergreen solar panels in 4 strings of 4 = 1920W @ STC
One FM80
Mate3s
FNDC

Settings:

VFXR3524A:

VFXR Settings.png

FM80:

FM80 Settings.png

FNDC:

FNDC Settings.png

Mate3s:

Global Charger Control = Enabled
Maximum Battery Charge = 26A (13A each bloc)
Auto Charge Termination Control = Enabled
provo
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Posts: 1101
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:34 pm
My RE system: 16 Evergreen EC-120 (4 strings, total 1920W)
2 SimpliPhi 3.8-m-24V (150Ah each)
One FM80
One VFXR3524A
Hub 10
Mate3s
FNDC
Honda EU3000is generator
Location: Sierra foothills

Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by provo »

Event History 1-14-22.png

Optics Graph.png

Sunny morning, VFXR not used at all, E.H. reports 8m abs,
FM says 7m abs (this is typical).
raysun
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Posts: 7762
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

provo wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:51 pm Event History 1-14-22.png



Optics Graph.png


Sunny morning, VFXR not used at all, E.H. reports 8m abs,
FM says 7m abs (this is typical).
It might be time to revisit max charge current. Perhaps bump it up in 10-15% increments judge results?
provo
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1101
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:34 pm
My RE system: 16 Evergreen EC-120 (4 strings, total 1920W)
2 SimpliPhi 3.8-m-24V (150Ah each)
One FM80
One VFXR3524A
Hub 10
Mate3s
FNDC
Honda EU3000is generator
Location: Sierra foothills

Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by provo »

raysun wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:26 pm
It might be time to revisit max charge current. Perhaps bump it up in 10-15% increments judge results?
Good idea, I'll take another look at that. I saw a pretty consistent result earlier that higher currents in bulk made for a longer time in absorb before CPM would be met. The reason it's only 7m instead of 11m now is the outcome of that. But a few other settings may have changed since then, so it would bear revisiting...

I don't mind not entering float earlier in the day, since I use a "low float" voltage -- the longer it stays there, the more the battery depletes before sundown.
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 7762
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

provo wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:24 pm
raysun wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:26 pm
It might be time to revisit max charge current. Perhaps bump it up in 10-15% increments judge results?
Good idea, I'll take another look at that. I saw a pretty consistent result earlier that higher currents in bulk made for a longer time in absorb before CPM would be met. The reason it's only 7m instead of 11m now is the outcome of that. But a few other settings may have changed since then, so it would bear revisiting...

I don't mind not entering float earlier in the day, since I use a "low float" voltage -- the longer it stays there, the more the battery depletes before sundown.
I mostly do a "low float" because I have capacity greater than our needs. If I was concerned with drawing the battery down too far, I'd use a higher float voltage.

The Phi support tech sort of dismissed my approach as being unnecessary for battery health. I don't entirely agree, or disagree.
raysun
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Posts: 7762
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

1/14/22

Charging to CPM via inverter chargers. Solar charged the battery to 86% SoC, after which some system reconfiguration/testing resulted in needing to power down entirely. Since the FNDC "woke up" at 100% it was decided to finish charging the battery to CPM via the inverters, with a small contribution from the charge controllers.

The end of charge saw some minor contention as the inverters completed Absorb, but the charge controllers thought there was a minute or two to go. Dropping the generator caused the battery to discharge a bit and the CPM flag to set.
Screenshot_20220114-173155_Firefox.jpg
20220114_173420.jpg
JRHill
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

I'll be in here soon when I have good, recent data. Last night I realized that the AGS wasn't set to Auto. Opps. I changed it to Auto and the genset started but I lost an hour of charging. It shut down at 95% - that's good enough for me. I wasn't going to stay up later cause the best entertainment was a B grade sci-fi movie. I'll try again later.
JRHill
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

OK here are the reverent tidbits of settings, event history and the day's graph. Maybe someone can see something? I am entirely prepared for the 'problem' so be something silly stupid and simple.
1-15-2022-Inverter-Charge.pdf
(155.41 KiB) Downloaded 13 times
1-15-2022-FNDC.pdf
(145.85 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
1-15-2022-M3-AGS.pdf
(168.54 KiB) Downloaded 9 times
Next Msg
JRHill
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Posts: 2391
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My RE system: 48v OB inverter and charge controller, hub and mate3s.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

1-15-2022-M3-Global.pdf
(168.54 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
1-15-2022-Ore-Graph.png
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 7762
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

JRHill wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:47 am OK here are the reverent tidbits of settings, event history and the day's graph. Maybe someone can see something? I am entirely prepared for the 'problem' so be something silly stupid and simple.

1-15-2022-Inverter-Charge.pdf
1-15-2022-FNDC.pdf
1-15-2022-M3-AGS.pdf

Next Msg
I don't see anything amiss in VFXR or FNDC configurations. Skipped AGS, IDK about that.
raysun
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Posts: 7762
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

JRHill wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:56 am 1-15-2022-M3-Global.pdf
1-15-2022-Ore-Graph.png
Global Charge looks OK.
JRHill
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

Events:
1-15-2022-Events.pdf
(122.98 KiB) Downloaded 9 times
The above I said was interesting. You will see a bunch of over voltage errors. For some reasom the EU7000 is running up to 131 at no load. Works perfectly under load. You will also see the multiple Rebulks: the first two with no Absorb, the tird with a short one and the last that actually worked and set CPM.
raysun
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Posts: 7762
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

JRHill wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:20 am Events:
1-15-2022-Events.pdf

The above I said was interesting. You will see a bunch of over voltage errors. For some reasom the EU7000 is running up to 131 at no load. Works perfectly under load. You will also see the multiple Rebulks: the first two with no Absorb, the tird with a short one and the last that actually worked and set CPM.
The generator voltage regulation notwithstanding, the other behavior kind of explains the charging weirdness. Bump the HBCO closer to the Phi-specified 60V from the somewhat low setting of 57.6V in place now, and the "charge hesitation" will likely disappear. It looks like the inverter charger "throttling" I saw yesterday when testing HBCO.

One note of caution. One of the events I saw when Absorb = 56.0V and HBCO = 56.4, is the charge voltage rose above 57V. I'd never experienced that before. Keep an eagle-eye on it.

Maybe set the AC Input Gen Upper Voltage limit a bit lower to keep the generator in check? 127V?
JRHill
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

Raysun, thanks for taking the time to go through all the uploads. I will make the adjustments.

What I can't do anything about it the generator no-load voltage at open circuit, or almost open circuit. That is distressing.
raysun
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Posts: 7762
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

JRHill wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:42 pm Raysun, thanks for taking the time to go through all the uploads. I will make the adjustments.

What I can't do anything about it the generator no-load voltage at open circuit, or almost open circuit. That is distressing.
Is it out of specification? (I don't think I've ever measured no-load voltage.)
raysun
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Posts: 7762
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

Screenshot_20220116-141212_Firefox.jpg
Screenshot_20220116-141333_Firefox.jpg
Sort of an oddity. Absorb not reported, but CPM reached. (Confirmed by FNDC and Victron.)

Maybe the Absorb event wasn't captured?
JRHill
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:47 pm
JRHill wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:42 pm Raysun, thanks for taking the time to go through all the uploads. I will make the adjustments.

What I can't do anything about it the generator no-load voltage at open circuit, or almost open circuit. That is distressing.
Is it out of specification? (I don't think I've ever measured no-load voltage.)
I've have the high voltage limit for the genset at 135 for a long time. It was just recent that the warnings began showing up in the log. I've since lowered it to 128 and increased the connect delay to 2 seconds.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:17 pm Screenshot_20220116-141212_Firefox.jpg

Screenshot_20220116-141333_Firefox.jpg

Sort of an oddity. Absorb not reported, but CPM reached. (Confirmed by FNDC and Victron.)

Maybe the Absorb event wasn't captured?
Very possible. Last night's run gave me 1 minute of Absorb. CPM wasn't met but I have to be close.
JRHill
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

I just want to verify that changing the FNDC Advanced Control > Enable Charge Termination from Yes to No would make no difference since Charge Parameters have not been met, hence it wouldn't happen? Just as an experiment to see Absorb completed in full? Once in a while? And then set it back to before from the inverter/genset? My feeble mind is getting too many textual programming inputs to coordinate on the fly. I do well with following a block diagram but from text to diagram never gives the full picture.

Raysun, you just recently proved that the inverter charger DOES stop. This is absolutely valuable for unattended protection of over voltage to the PHIs - barring a malfunction. But if one was monitoring and seeking an occasional successful CPM under relatively normal conditions, what can be turned on or off without Rebulking a bunch of times and hope ya hit it. That in itself screws up Coulomb counting as that is not normal and sets an abnormal reset.

Take a breath before you rip me for missing something.
raysun
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Posts: 7762
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
6 SimpliPhi 3.8-48 (48v @ 75AH. 450AH total)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

If Automatic Charge Termination is disabled, then Absorb stage should execute for the full Absorb Time, after which Absorb will terminate.

I did observe the Inverter Charger curtailing charge operations when HBCO voltage was reached. Also, an HBCO event is written to the log.
Screenshot_20220117-102027_Firefox.jpg
HBCO Voltage set to 56.4V for this test. Note Absorb stage terminated by event.
JRHill
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

One last point. We are getting to some better solar inputs as the days get longer and brighter. But still have a lot of PNW rainy days so I have time to get this inverter CPM thing figured out. Once to summer we have no problem. CPM every day then. Almost nine months of bliss with no generator/fuel. T-Shirt weather to shield from the sun. Tick season too.

Over all this has been a good season. Only snowed in for three weeks and that didn't even count. We could clear the trail but chose not to do so.

FM80 charging and CPM works great in the summer - day by day. Inverter, not so much in the winter.
JRHill
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:22 pm If Automatic Charge Termination is disabled, then Absorb stage should execute for the full Absorb Time, after which Absorb will terminate.

I did observe the Inverter Charger curtailing charge operations when HBCO voltage was reached. Also, an HBCO event is written to the log.

Screenshot_20220117-102027_Firefox.jpg
HBCO Voltage set to 56.4V for this test. Note Absorb stage terminated by event.
Before last night's AGS run I disabled Automatic Charge Termination. Absorb is set for .1 hour after 56.0 vdc.
1-18-2021-AGS-Run.png
Well Darn! I at least got 2 minutes of Absorb and that should've been enough to reach CPM. But I neither got CPM or what should've been the full 6 minutes of Absorb.

If there is any good news the its sun getting above some of the trees and last two days have gotten me close to half what is needed to recharge the batteries!
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