Additional 3.8 PHI

JRHill
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Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by JRHill »

I thought I had the plan for the integration of my fourth battery until a few days ago. On another thread I discovered my battery breaker, rated at 48v max, is not for a 48v system that can't go higher than 48v max. While I've never popped the breaker in 12 years if it happened, it may only happen once. So I went looking for a replacement. All I found for a breaker was a panel mount, requiring another box to be mounted somewhere, and the dang breaker had 1/4" screw studs?!?

I had planned to do a hybrid battery connection. But now with the breaker change everything is screwed up. It now looks like a positive battery buss going to a panel mount breaker with wimpy 1/4" connections, then off to the inverter. 1/4"?

What did you folks find for a battery breaker at 90 or 100a? Something with reasonable studs?
raysun
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REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by raysun »

Do you need them to terminate in ring terminal studs?

I use this kind a lot - it accepts bare wire. This particular one mounts on DIN rail which is cheap enough and more flexible than panel mounts.

https://www.amazon.com/Midnite-Solar-Ci ... DC+&sr=1-2
Mike Curran
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My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
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- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
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- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
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- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 microinverters

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by Mike Curran »

I used the 175A panel mount Outback breaker in this list for my 3 battery Simpliphi setup with my Skybox: https://www.outbackpower.com/products/i ... anel-mount

Pictured here mounted inside a plastic box: download/file.php?id=2962&mode=view
https://smart.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45?date=2021-04-19
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
raysun
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REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by raysun »

Mike Curran wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:46 am I used the 175A panel mount Outback breaker in this list for my 3 battery Simpliphi setup with my Skybox: https://www.outbackpower.com/products/i ... anel-mount

Pictured here mounted inside a plastic box: download/file.php?id=2962&mode=view
I have that breaker (× 4) in my battery rack and FP2 DC wiring panel. Its a solid unit. Make sure your cabling has ampacity to handle the rated current.
fcwlp
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Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by fcwlp »

raysun wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:34 am I use this kind a lot - it accepts bare wire. This particular one mounts on DIN rail which is cheap enough and more flexible than panel mounts.

https://www.amazon.com/Midnite-Solar-Ci ... DC+&sr=1-2
As a word of caution, this type of screw terminal is not rated for fine stranded cable. If used, the wire should be enclosed in a ferrule. Example for 4/0 at https://www.ferrulesdirect.com/collecti ... 0mm%C2%B2)
raysun
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My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by raysun »

fcwlp wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:23 pm
raysun wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:34 am I use this kind a lot - it accepts bare wire. This particular one mounts on DIN rail which is cheap enough and more flexible than panel mounts.

https://www.amazon.com/Midnite-Solar-Ci ... DC+&sr=1-2
As a word of caution, this type of screw terminal is not rated for fine stranded cable. If used, the wire should be enclosed in a ferrule. Example for 4/0 at https://www.ferrulesdirect.com/collecti ... 0mm%C2%B2)
Thats good to know. Someone should tell Outback. They wire the FlexPower panels with those breakers and bare wire. Granted, it isn't that fine welding wire, but cable made from what looks like 18GA strands.

What tool do you recommend for 2/0 ferrules?
Mike Curran
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Posts: 2275
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 microinverters

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by Mike Curran »

Here's a link to the breaker I bought https://www.ecodirect.com/Outback-PNL-1 ... 175-dc.htm and a view of it inside its enclosure.
20210403_175040.jpg
3/8" stud terminals.
https://smart.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45?date=2021-04-19
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
fcwlp
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I install and maintain grid-tied and off-grid systems in my area and consult on solar system design/operation.
Location: 80 miles NE of Phoenix at 5500'

Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by fcwlp »

raysun wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:31 pm Thats good to know. Someone should tell Outback. They wire the FlexPower panels with those breakers and bare wire. Granted, it isn't that fine welding wire, but cable made from what looks like 18GA strands.

What tool do you recommend for 2/0 ferrules?
I know that Outback uses ferrules on the pre-wired Radian systems between the GSLC and CCs which use a very flexible cable. I am sure that on the FlexPower panels Outback has done the appropriate engineering. For Cobra's X-Flex 2/0 cable there are 1,330 wires of 30Ga.

On the ferrulesdirect website there are a variety of hand tools at different price points for 2/0. https://www.ferrulesdirect.com/collecti ... 0777%20DLO
JRHill
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Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:34 am Do you need them to terminate in ring terminal studs?

I use this kind a lot - it accepts bare wire. This particular one mounts on DIN rail which is cheap enough and more flexible than panel mounts.

https://www.amazon.com/Midnite-Solar-Ci ... DC+&sr=1-2
The label says "POLARITY SENSITIVE DO NOT REVERSE FEED" so use with the batteries may not be the hot setup.
raysun
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My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by raysun »

JRHill wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:06 am
raysun wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:34 am Do you need them to terminate in ring terminal studs?

I use this kind a lot - it accepts bare wire. This particular one mounts on DIN rail which is cheap enough and more flexible than panel mounts.

https://www.amazon.com/Midnite-Solar-Ci ... DC+&sr=1-2
The label says "POLARITY SENSITIVE DO NOT REVERSE FEED" so use with the batteries may not be the hot setup.
That may be so.
JRHill
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Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by JRHill »

I keep hitting a brick wall on this breaker issue. Ultimately and easiest would be a suitable replacement for the surface mount 100a DC breaker that I'm using but at 70vdc+. Of that style I see a bunch of 'em but not higher than the 48vdc max so I'm guessing the surface mount package limits this style to that 48v. DIN breakers? Need a box just for the one breaker and that means more wire/new cabling due to a different location for the box. Grrr.

This is America and I want it my way and I want it now!
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Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by sodamo »

9D0B1019-4E7B-4507-86D3-1D52D63AD190.jpeg
My SimpliPhis go to a Midnight combiner box

Each goes to this 63A breaker
https://www.amazon.com/MidNite-Solar-Ph ... 32&sr=8-10
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com
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Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by sbrownian »

I just gotta ask...

What went 'bang' in the past?
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
sodamo
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My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
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Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by sodamo »

Me. Different configuration, pre SimpliPhi, was adding a negative cable wearing heavy gloves and wrench slipped.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com
JRHill
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Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by JRHill »

sodamo wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:48 pm 9D0B1019-4E7B-4507-86D3-1D52D63AD190.jpegMy SimpliPhis go to a Midnight combiner box

Each goes to this 63A breaker
https://www.amazon.com/MidNite-Solar-Ph ... 32&sr=8-10
I got with a neighbor who is an electrician. His advice was to blow off the whole breaker thing and put a surface mount fuse holder and DC fuse in place of the current insufficient breaker. In all these years the current breaker has only been used as a switch anyway. The electrical supply in a nearby town probably has the stuff in stock.
raysun
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My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by raysun »

JRHill wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:22 am
sodamo wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:48 pm 9D0B1019-4E7B-4507-86D3-1D52D63AD190.jpegMy SimpliPhis go to a Midnight combiner box

Each goes to this 63A breaker
https://www.amazon.com/MidNite-Solar-Ph ... 32&sr=8-10
I got with a neighbor who is an electrician. His advice was to blow off the whole breaker thing and put a surface mount fuse holder and DC fuse in place of the current insufficient breaker. In all these years the current breaker has only been used as a switch anyway. The electrical supply in a nearby town probably has the stuff in stock.
I was going to jokingly suggest that as a surface mount option. Its a serious option, however, if the right voltage fuse is available. Most of the mobile - marine stuff is 12 - 36V.

For cutoff, the batteries have their own. You're gonna revisit some favorite words having to get to them, though.

One non-related, random thought. The battery is in the crawl space, yes? Is there cold-temperature (sub freezing) protection for them there?
JRHill
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Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:03 amOne non-related, random thought. The battery is in the crawl space, yes? Is there cold-temperature (sub freezing) protection for them there?
Even in the coldest of weather it never gets below the mid 50's down there. There are some concerns with closing up the crawl space in the winter but I've mostly remediated for those over the years.
sbrownian
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My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3
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Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by sbrownian »

sodamo wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:50 am Me. Different configuration, pre SimpliPhi, was adding a negative cable wearing heavy gloves and wrench slipped.
I have a pair of needle nose that have a large crater on the side of the box joint.

Didn't need to change the underware, but it was pretty close...
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
sodamo
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Posts: 1140
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by sodamo »

sbrownian wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:15 pm
sodamo wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:50 am Me. Different configuration, pre SimpliPhi, was adding a negative cable wearing heavy gloves and wrench slipped.
I have a pair of needle nose that have a large crater on the side of the box joint.

Didn't need to change the underware, but it was pretty close...
LOL,
I’m experienced.
My Dad was an electrical contractor, so I grew up being a helper. One summer here had a job at the local school. He had me doing something in the main distribution panel. I can still hear the sound of that wrench being flung across the room. Dad’s advise, “Pay attention”
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com
JRHill
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Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by JRHill »

sodamo wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:23 pmLOL, I’m experienced.
This is true. I was a young apprentice machinist at a newspaper. The press was down and locked out. The pressmen were standing around gritting their teeth. Milo the electrician called me "Hey kid, com'ere. Look at this." He put his hand up to my neck as I peered into the disconnect. With a sweeping motion he went across one leg of the 480v. It didn't phase him but it threw me backward and to the steel plate floor. The whole unit erupted in laughter. He said "always be careful about this stuff." I've thought back about apprentice training on many times and that one stands out. I think I understand how he was not affected but I gained a huge respect from the lesson. My boss, the supv of the machinists chuckled when I complained. The machinist union rep just turned and walked away.

I often wonder about apprenticeships today.....
raysun
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My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by raysun »

JRHill wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:04 pm
raysun wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:03 amOne non-related, random thought. The battery is in the crawl space, yes? Is there cold-temperature (sub freezing) protection for them there?
Even in the coldest of weather it never gets below the mid 50's down there. There are some concerns with closing up the crawl space in the winter but I've mostly remediated for those over the years.
Asking for a friend.
JRHill
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Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by JRHill »

Color me a bit lazy but I finally got down and dressed all the cables and mounting. The additional battery has been up and running for a week and, oh my gosh, what a difference in system performance! And I still have room for two more Phis, heh, not. Unless Raysun adopts me and supplies a few more out of love.
raysun
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Posts: 4581
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by raysun »

JRHill wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:35 pm Color me a bit lazy but I finally got down and dressed all the cables and mounting. The additional battery has been up and running for a week and, oh my gosh, what a difference in system performance! And I still have room for two more Phis, heh, not. Unless Raysun adopts me and supplies a few more out of love.
Heh! You're barking up the wrong tree partner. We both need to get into the orphanage up on the Hamakua coast. I think there's a LiFePo4 mine on the property.

Gotta say going from lead to lithium was like changing out my concrete crusted work boots for Air Jordans.
sodamo
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Posts: 1140
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by sodamo »

Hmmmm, maybe I need keep the little ones on a close leash 😁
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com
raysun
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Posts: 4581
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Additional 3.8 PHI

Post by raysun »

sodamo wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:04 pm Hmmmm, maybe I need keep the little ones on a close leash 😁
😆😆😆
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