Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 419
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda EM5000 generator + one EU3000
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by gtarolli »

"Just to confirm: you were using the 56.4 profile with charged voltage at 55.6v? If the FNDC meets the charged parameters at or passing 55.6v how does that affect the FNDC SOC calculation if you are running up to 56.4 with charge termination disabled? Does the FNDC tracking stop at 55.6 or does it continue up to 56.4vdc? Thinking of it as counting in and out it would seem that it tracks to the top and counts down from there. And it would follow the SOC is reset at that upper threshold."

For the first 2 years I was using the 56v profile, i.e. 56v absorb for .1hr and 54v float. I then switched the lower voltage profile a little over a year ago. Because I have 9kw of panels I found that absorb in the high 54's was too low, I could reach that too easily so I settled on 55v. After a few months I noticed a lower capacity. So now I switched to the 56.4v profile for .1hr. As Raysun noted, once you pass around 55.6v or so the voltage usually rises rapidly to 56v or beyond. I have charge termination disabled, so FNDC just says 100% SOC but the chargers stay in absorb mode until they satisfy the absorb criteria. SOC stays at 100% and Net Ah goes up a bit to 4-5 and then resets to 0 again, as CPM occurs again or whatever, but it doesn't matter since its disabled. So as soon as the absorb timer is done, things go silent, SOC is at 100% , net Ah is around 0, and the voltage drops to 54v and float begins and SOC and net Ah drop a pinch and all is good and reset IMO.
JRHill
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1519
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:12 am
My RE system: VFXR3648, FM80, 3k panels, Mate3s, FNDC, 4ea 3.8 PHIs. EU7000is AGS.
Location: PNW
Contact:

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by JRHill »

Moving my reply to the 54.6 to 56.4 thread.
JRHill
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1519
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:12 am
My RE system: VFXR3648, FM80, 3k panels, Mate3s, FNDC, 4ea 3.8 PHIs. EU7000is AGS.
Location: PNW
Contact:

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by JRHill »

gtarolli wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:14 pm "Just to confirm: you were using the 56.4 profile with charged voltage at 55.6v? If the FNDC meets the charged parameters at or passing 55.6v how does that affect the FNDC SOC calculation if you are running up to 56.4 with charge termination disabled? Does the FNDC tracking stop at 55.6 or does it continue up to 56.4vdc? Thinking of it as counting in and out it would seem that it tracks to the top and counts down from there. And it would follow the SOC is reset at that upper threshold."

For the first 2 years I was using the 56v profile, i.e. 56v absorb for .1hr and 54v float. I then switched the lower voltage profile a little over a year ago. Because I have 9kw of panels I found that absorb in the high 54's was too low, I could reach that too easily so I settled on 55v. After a few months I noticed a lower capacity. So now I switched to the 56.4v profile for .1hr. As Raysun noted, once you pass around 55.6v or so the voltage usually rises rapidly to 56v or beyond. I have charge termination disabled, so FNDC just says 100% SOC but the chargers stay in absorb mode until they satisfy the absorb criteria. SOC stays at 100% and Net Ah goes up a bit to 4-5 and then resets to 0 again, as CPM occurs again or whatever, but it doesn't matter since its disabled. So as soon as the absorb timer is done, things go silent, SOC is at 100% , net Ah is around 0, and the voltage drops to 54v and float begins and SOC and net Ah drop a pinch and all is good and reset IMO.
Yup. I did the lower voltage at 54.6 with little absorb, or .2, actually. It was wimpy. I tried a 1hr absorb and it sure made a difference. Then I bumped it to 55.6 as an experiment and went back to .2 absorb. Whoa. The next morning all was different and had more power than we needed. I'm still trying to find the sweet spot. It seems something over 54.6 with the 1 hour absorb works well. I haven't gone for a longer absorb (1.5hr) but that's next up. I'm getting enough info that the notes are getting to be a confusing matrix.
sbrownian
Forum Czar
Posts: 538
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by sbrownian »

JRHill wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:52 pm
gtarolli wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:14 pm "Just to confirm: you were using the 56.4 profile with charged voltage at 55.6v? If the FNDC meets the charged parameters at or passing 55.6v how does that affect the FNDC SOC calculation if you are running up to 56.4 with charge termination disabled? Does the FNDC tracking stop at 55.6 or does it continue up to 56.4vdc? Thinking of it as counting in and out it would seem that it tracks to the top and counts down from there. And it would follow the SOC is reset at that upper threshold."

For the first 2 years I was using the 56v profile, i.e. 56v absorb for .1hr and 54v float. I then switched the lower voltage profile a little over a year ago. Because I have 9kw of panels I found that absorb in the high 54's was too low, I could reach that too easily so I settled on 55v. After a few months I noticed a lower capacity. So now I switched to the 56.4v profile for .1hr. As Raysun noted, once you pass around 55.6v or so the voltage usually rises rapidly to 56v or beyond. I have charge termination disabled, so FNDC just says 100% SOC but the chargers stay in absorb mode until they satisfy the absorb criteria. SOC stays at 100% and Net Ah goes up a bit to 4-5 and then resets to 0 again, as CPM occurs again or whatever, but it doesn't matter since its disabled. So as soon as the absorb timer is done, things go silent, SOC is at 100% , net Ah is around 0, and the voltage drops to 54v and float begins and SOC and net Ah drop a pinch and all is good and reset IMO.
Yup. I did the lower voltage at 54.6 with little absorb, or .2, actually. It was wimpy. I tried a 1hr absorb and it sure made a difference. Then I bumped it to 55.6 as an experiment and went back to .2 absorb. Whoa. The next morning all was different and had more power than we needed. I'm still trying to find the sweet spot. It seems something over 54.6 with the 1 hour absorb works well. I haven't gone for a longer absorb (1.5hr) but that's next up. I'm getting enough info that the notes are getting to be a confusing matrix.

Just for reference, this is what ReLion shows as a voltage vs SOC curve... (300 ah '48'v) Hockey stick at the end happens pretty quickly, like 5 to 10 minutes for that last jump.
Attachments
Relion-SOC-vs-Temp.jpg
Relion-SOC-vs-Voltage.jpg
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 4581
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by raysun »

Those look like the characteristic LiFePO4 curves. The temperature dependent curves aren't often published, however. Interesting info

That sharp charge termination "signature" at 100% is fascinating to watch in operation. There's little doubt when 100% SoC is reached.

As a "stress test" I used all 4 available chargers to charge my battery at 120A (20A per block). The battery accepted the 120A charge current right up to 56.4V, at which point the current "nose dived" to 0A in 120 seconds.
User avatar
EA6LE-ONE
Forum Guru
Posts: 498
Joined: Tue May 05, 2020 7:51 am
My RE system: System 1:
MATE3s, 3 x Radian GS8048A,
6 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10,
2 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 6 x FLEXware ICS Plus,
78 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W

System 2:
MATE3s, Radian GS8048A,
2 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10
1 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 2 x FLEXware ICS
21 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W
Location: Providenciales, Turks & Caicos Isl.

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by EA6LE-ONE »

EA6LE-ONE wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:38 am You might want to experiment using one shunt operation for the FNDC and have the inverters and the CCs connected before the shunt to the battery. maybe the numbers will look better.
Sorry I bring this back again. but you should try the scenario with one shunt and see if that works better for lithium batteries. the case I make on this that there can be a possibility that one of the two or three shunts report less or more amps than should and that could skew the numbers maybe enough for the lithium charging parameters to be off. one of the shunts can degrade faster than the other as one can have more energy pass through and generate more heat thus resulting in a small degradation over long time.
Also using one shunt should help know exactly what current goes in and out of the battery. With 2 or more shunts you have the power going to the battery connection then going to the loads. with one shunt the power flows from cc to the inverters first and what is left goes to the battery. theoretically should not be a difference between the two scenarios, but if there is a different flow of electrons in each scenario.
Raysun, maybe you should run an experiment and see if there is any difference.
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 4581
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by raysun »

EA6LE-ONE wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:51 am
EA6LE-ONE wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:38 am You might want to experiment using one shunt operation for the FNDC and have the inverters and the CCs connected before the shunt to the battery. maybe the numbers will look better.
Sorry I bring this back again. but you should try the scenario with one shunt and see if that works better for lithium batteries. the case I make on this that there can be a possibility that one of the two or three shunts report less or more amps than should and that could skew the numbers maybe enough for the lithium charging parameters to be off. one of the shunts can degrade faster than the other as one can have more energy pass through and generate more heat thus resulting in a small degradation over long time.
Also using one shunt should help know exactly what current goes in and out of the battery. With 2 or more shunts you have the power going to the battery connection then going to the loads. with one shunt the power flows from cc to the inverters first and what is left goes to the battery. theoretically should not be a difference between the two scenarios, but if there is a different flow of electrons in each scenario.
Raysun, maybe you should run an experiment and see if there is any difference.
I'm actually running both scenarios concurrently, albeit with different equipment attached to the shunts.

I have the "classic" Outback two shunt arrangement, with Shunt A between the charge controllers and the battery, and Shunt B between the Battery and everything else (inverters, in this case). Both shunts are tied in at the Battery Negative Bus Bar.

Between the Battery Negative and the Battery Negative Bus Bar, I have a Victron BMV700 meter and its attendant shunt. This shunt gets "first bite of the apple" with regards to current flowing from battery to battery negative bus bar. It is essentially in series with the two branch circuit comprised of the Outback shunts.
User avatar
EA6LE-ONE
Forum Guru
Posts: 498
Joined: Tue May 05, 2020 7:51 am
My RE system: System 1:
MATE3s, 3 x Radian GS8048A,
6 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10,
2 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 6 x FLEXware ICS Plus,
78 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W

System 2:
MATE3s, Radian GS8048A,
2 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10
1 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 2 x FLEXware ICS
21 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W
Location: Providenciales, Turks & Caicos Isl.

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by EA6LE-ONE »

raysun wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:51 am
EA6LE-ONE wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:51 am
EA6LE-ONE wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:38 am You might want to experiment using one shunt operation for the FNDC and have the inverters and the CCs connected before the shunt to the battery. maybe the numbers will look better.
Sorry I bring this back again. but you should try the scenario with one shunt and see if that works better for lithium batteries. the case I make on this that there can be a possibility that one of the two or three shunts report less or more amps than should and that could skew the numbers maybe enough for the lithium charging parameters to be off. one of the shunts can degrade faster than the other as one can have more energy pass through and generate more heat thus resulting in a small degradation over long time.
Also using one shunt should help know exactly what current goes in and out of the battery. With 2 or more shunts you have the power going to the battery connection then going to the loads. with one shunt the power flows from cc to the inverters first and what is left goes to the battery. theoretically should not be a difference between the two scenarios, but if there is a different flow of electrons in each scenario.
Raysun, maybe you should run an experiment and see if there is any difference.
I'm actually running both scenarios concurrently, albeit with different equipment attached to the shunts.

I have the "classic" Outback two shunt arrangement, with Shunt A between the charge controllers and the battery, and Shunt B between the Battery and everything else (inverters, in this case). Both shunts are tied in at the Battery Negative Bus Bar.

Between the Battery Negative and the Battery Negative Bus Bar, I have a Victron BMV700 meter and its attendant shunt. This shunt gets "first bite of the apple" with regards to current flowing from battery to battery negative bus bar. It is essentially in series with the two branch circuit comprised of the Outback shunts.
That looks more like my setup. instead of victron I have the outback with one shunt. are the numbers between the FNDC and victron aligned or is a bit of discrepancy?
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 4581
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by raysun »

The current measurements are spot-on.
Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2275
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 microinverters

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by Mike Curran »

Depending on the number of days since Charged Parameters Met, the FNDC may have drifted off the true SoC. My system always reaches 100% before Charged Parameters Met is set, and I simply ignore it, as charging continues past that point to the true 100% SoC at charge termination.
IIUC, 100% SOC just means your FNDC has compared current out to current in (plus charge factor) and found them equal. As you say, true 100% SOC is reached when return amps are reached. Any discrepancy between them can be explained by variation or inaccuracy in the assigned charge factor.
https://smart.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45?date=2021-04-19
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
pss
Forum Czar
Posts: 740
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:40 am
My RE system: 8330 watts in three strings, Flexmax 60 x 3, Radian 8048A, GSLC load center, Mate 3S, Hub 10.3, FN-DC and 900 Amp, 48V Trojan T105-RE battery bank.

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by pss »

So what exactly is the advantage of a LiFPO4 battery in solar if your pay 4 times as much, the capacity degrades significantly (apparently Tesla guarantees 70 percent capacity remaining during warranty period) and the battery manufacturer doesn't want to honor a warranty or is out of business or the Chinese company is no where to be found?

On the other hand, a good American or Canadian FLA will get you 4-8 years with proper care.

Please explain besides size, weight, hydrogen gassing, etc.
sbrownian
Forum Czar
Posts: 538
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by sbrownian »

Being picky here, but if you aren't getting 8 to 10 years from FLAs, they're defective, not sized properly, or not being 'fed' correctly...
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
JRHill
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1519
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:12 am
My RE system: VFXR3648, FM80, 3k panels, Mate3s, FNDC, 4ea 3.8 PHIs. EU7000is AGS.
Location: PNW
Contact:

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by JRHill »

pss wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:31 am So what exactly is the advantage of a LiFPO4 battery in solar if your pay 4 times as much, the capacity degrades significantly (apparently Tesla guarantees 70 percent capacity remaining during warranty period) and the battery manufacturer doesn't want to honor a warranty or is out of business or the Chinese company is no where to be found?

On the other hand, a good American or Canadian FLA will get you 4-8 years with proper care.

Please explain besides size, weight, hydrogen gassing, etc.
4x the cost is a bit much but for me it was 2x.

One of my main reasons for going to the SimpliPhis was usage in terms of loading and charging. We are very light on our power usage. Our inverter shunt rarely sees 10 amps of load until evening unless I am doing stuff in the shop. A new set on L16s work great for the first 2.5 years for us then comes the decline in performance and more generator time.

And of course our location is 2nd. We need generator power to provide battery charging for 3 months of the year and that is limited by the 20aac max of the inverter. Even on a (rare) sunny day during this time the days are short and the sun will be behind trees. So we have low discharge and then low recharge rates for ~25% of the year. During the summer all was great with FLA L16s in good condition and the longer days. I went through 2 banks over 9 years and that took a lot of generator run time to get through winters and absorb cycles.

I hope to have addressed the light loading and charging now. And while I still have to run the generator for winter charging the PHIs are showing themselves to be quite efficient at returning most of the power but into them with very little absorb compared to FLAs. And they care little about partial charges, at least that's what I've read.

Lastly is the usable SOC of the lithium vs FLAs. Right now I am only using half of the power available from the PHIs. I'm pretty excited for the longer days so I can experience how the PHIs work on solar only.
Last edited by JRHill on Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
JRHill
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1519
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:12 am
My RE system: VFXR3648, FM80, 3k panels, Mate3s, FNDC, 4ea 3.8 PHIs. EU7000is AGS.
Location: PNW
Contact:

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by JRHill »

sbrownian wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:51 am Being picky here, but if you aren't getting 8 to 10 years from FLAs, they're defective, not sized properly, or not being 'fed' correctly...
Ya gotta work 'em in terms of load and recharge. Its not just the feeding - that's my opinion anyway.
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 4581
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by raysun »

pss wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:31 am So what exactly is the advantage of a LiFPO4 battery in solar if your pay 4 times as much, the capacity degrades significantly (apparently Tesla guarantees 70 percent capacity remaining during warranty period) and the battery manufacturer doesn't want to honor a warranty or is out of business or the Chinese company is no where to be found?

On the other hand, a good American or Canadian FLA will get you 4-8 years with proper care.

Please explain besides size, weight, hydrogen gassing, etc.
There's no doubt lead acid is, and will continue to be, the dominant energy storage technology for the indefinite future. Likewise, lead batteries are the most recycled product in the world, a great thing - unless you happen to work in lead recycling.

So with a dominant, highly recyclable technology, why lithium? Let's start with size, weight, hydrogen gassing, etc. Doing so, let's skip all the applications where lead acid doesn't fit: mobile power and small electronics, for example, and focus on fixed energy storage, the most level playing field where lead and lithium compete.

Size, weight and gassing can all be lumped together and support energy storage in places where it is currently impractical or not easily accomodated. There is likely no future in lead acid powerwalls.

Charge efficiency is a clear advantage for lithium. I takes less significanly infrastructure to store a watt of energy. Likewise, discharge efficiency goes to lithium. More of the energy stored can be applied to useful work.

Lithium is hands-down simpler to charge and maintain. The time-honored ritual of watering flooded lead acid batteries is nobody's idea of a pleasurable exercise. Most FLA batteries are poorly maintained as a result. The long potential service life, in practice, is cut short for this reason alone. The complex chemistry of lead acid batteries has been studied for well over a century, and people are still writing masters' theses on the subject. We get the gist of it, but the devil is in the details, and the devil continues to elude us. As a result, charging is at best a "ballpark" exercise, rather than a target shoot. We waste a lot of resources getting into the ballpark.

Lead acid is a mature technology. There is little chance that a materials or process discovery is going to make a disruptive change in lead batteries. Lithium is in its infancy. The immaturity shows in cost, and understanding. The potential for further improvement is very high. Given the amount of research in the field, its almost a foregone conclusion. The current cost and reliability issues will go the way they always do with such widely adapted technologies. My wife started her working career wiring memory boards to program IBM mainframes. This morning I plugged a 250GB memory "board" smaller than a fingernail into my mobile phone.

That being said, if someone asks me what type of battery they should buy today for their power system, I tell them lead acid, and then look to the near future when lithium is a compelling "no brainer".

I can't speak to the potential longevity v.s. cost of the two chemistries, lithium is just too new to have a track record. I can say that my last VRLA battery cost $4000 to install, another $1000 to replace two monoblocks that failed 30 days out of warranty, and at the end of 4 years had declined from 350AH gross capacity to 280AH. My $15,000 Lithium battery is too new to tell any sordid tales of degradation, but if I lost 30% of its capacity over its lifetime, I'd still have nearly double the usable capacity of my former battery when it was new.

I'm an advocate of where things are going far more than where things have been. I know the economics of lithium today is not what the marketers hype. If anyone is buying lithium with the notion of cost savings, they are on a fool's errand, IMO. If investing a premium for premium performance and ease of use, lithium wins, hand down.
sbrownian
Forum Czar
Posts: 538
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by sbrownian »

JRHill wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:29 am
sbrownian wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:51 am Being picky here, but if you aren't getting 8 to 10 years from FLAs, they're defective, not sized properly, or not being 'fed' correctly...
Ya gotta work 'em in terms of load and recharge. Its not just the feeding - that's my opinion anyway.
Agreed. The main reason for going to lithium was the locomotive MUD530 FLAs were used to begin with, had been in service on the solar system for a bit over 9 years, starting to show signs of reduced capacity, you wear out a genset for that last 10%, and the lithiums have a much lower per cycle energy loss. (No I haven't forgotten your PM.. Just about done writing up a response..)
The other factor is safety.

Servicing FLAs needs to be done CAREFULLY, especially if you are HOURS away from medical help.
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 2275
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 microinverters

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by Mike Curran »

There is likely no future in lead acid powerwalls.
There was a past in them. Power plants used them to back up their DC control circuits. The banks used 60, 2 volt cells in series for 125V DC. These were huge banks in their own rather large ventilated battery room. I think Ma Bell used them this way as well. I've been out of the power plant biz for 15 years so no idea what they're using now. But I'm sure utility scale storage coming down the road won't be using FLAs.
https://smart.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45?date=2021-04-19
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
sbrownian
Forum Czar
Posts: 538
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by sbrownian »

Mike Curran wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:16 am
There is likely no future in lead acid powerwalls.
There was a past in them. Power plants used them to back up their DC control circuits. The banks used 60, 2 volt cells in series for 125V DC. These were huge banks in their own rather large ventilated battery room. I think Ma Bell used them this way as well. I've been out of the power plant biz for 15 years so no idea what they're using now. But I'm sure utility scale storage coming down the road won't be using FLAs.
We still are using FLAs, and I haven't heard of any lithium replacement projects yet..

125v FLAs are standard in both our hydros, and all of our larger switchyards. (115kv and up.)

The smaller distribution subs are either 125v with DC to DC for the 48v gear, or are straight 48v. As the 48v systems age out, they are being replaced with 125v and the DC to DC converter, and the replacement rotective relays (mostly SEL,) are purchased with the widemouth option. I posted a pix of the three phase 65kw UPS 125v VRLA bank on one of the other threads.

The IT control center 100kw PWM (or larger,) UPS systems still come with self contained VRLA ~460vdc packs. (Depending on the manufacturer. )

As the tech matures, I'm sure they will move to lithium, but probably not for a while yet.

Interestingly, a remote hydro "off grid" system (250 kw or so,) that supplies a small community of maybe 2000 in the summer and around 100 in the winter, is in the running to get a 100KW Musk style battery/inverter system similar to the ones (about 2MW) that Puget Sound Energy has scattered around the PNW. The idea is to replace the output of a diesel 100hp induction style gen set that fills in when the hydro runs into its ceiling. (The hydro could actually provide the energy, but water rights issues limit the flow available.)

It has lithium, but I haven't seen the specs yet.
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
KeithBriggs
Forum Virtuoso
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:56 pm
My RE system: 16k 2 8k Radian 4 FM80 48 300w panels, 6 3.4 simpliphi Grid-tied, HBX mode connect 50.4 disconnect 51.2.

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by KeithBriggs »

The thread has gotten very interesting! Thanks for all the contributions.

When first installed my battery lengths probably ranged from about 3X" for the closest battery to 60" for the furthest away. I had to measure them for the 6 I need to make and bring back (lug press in CO). Hard to measure the length of a cockamamie non-linear wire. AWG 2. I wall mounted my 6 and plan to add the 3 by removing the lower Phi bracket which reveals about an inch and strapping the 3 to the bracket so I have 3 regular and 3 double-wide.

Its been miserable dark here save yesterday. Can't get a 100% to 20% updated capacity for at least 3 more days. Today could be a record sub 10kwh generated. 14 was the old record low.

3 years ago, I was initially going to go with non-lithium but the no-maint feature is really helpful as I'm a snow-bird. Also, the FLA was fine if used as emergent use (fewer cycles) but what I wanted was to basically use them every night so they said, I should spring for Phi's. 6 were 20k or almost doubling my costs! Then I added an inverter and didn't think thru the battery issue or I ignored it.

Again, my problem could very well be all self-inflicted. If I'm only down about 2kwh which will be compensated by 3 more 3.5s. I'll be up 8.2 kwh or worst case scenario net up 6.2 kwh and be within specs so I can redial my inverter back to 16kw and FM80s back to 80a each not that they all run hot at the same time but I can get more than 200a out of them on a (rare) sunny day.

In my search for storage for CO system. Its all about which lith to get. I'm not installing until this summer so not purchasing until August but I'm leaning toward 6 100ah. They sell 10's of thousands so some utilities must be using them. $880 each plus $1293 shipping,crap etc and it takes 30 days. LA stevedor fees are more (to unload a container) than the merch ship charges to drag a container across the pacific! Its a 19" rack model shape and lithium form factor is pouch. System there is one 8k radian, 2 FM100s and I only have 26 (one palette) of 360w mono panels so no risk of overcharging or over-draining. 5 strings 5,5,5,5 & 6 3 different roof angles S, N and W. 3 on the south, 1 on the north and 1 on the west. Roof real estate is limited.

To me a design weakness in the Phi's is an 80a breaker when 50a continuous will damage the bats. Breakers and bms are suppose to protect the batteries and it does not appear that Phi's do a great job of it. Or maybe in my case not protecting the batteries from ME. I not only got the spec sheet from what I'm looking at but also the testing protocol. They drop them, freeze them, cook them, over-drain them, overcharge them, short circuit them, cycle them, vibrate them for almost 2 hours etc to make sure they don't explode and/or the bms is doing its job (open the circuit). Battery LCD and LED's to help if something is awry. I'm sure Phi does the same and even more but it was entertaining to actually see what they go thru to get certified. Almost nothing is provided for interfacing with equipment but with 600ah, no worries! I've already jumped from 400ah and could jump to 800ah. Like raysun has said, balancing isn't an issue when you have lots of capacity. I have no worries about cross-walking the outback equipment settings. I would recommend Phi's to someone but I'd also recommend these along with Phi's app-note. Go big and then don't worry. This company makes the battery and the bms so they own the design 100%.
KeithBriggs
Forum Virtuoso
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:56 pm
My RE system: 16k 2 8k Radian 4 FM80 48 300w panels, 6 3.4 simpliphi Grid-tied, HBX mode connect 50.4 disconnect 51.2.

Re: Phi 3.4 48v 2.75 years old running at 82.5% capacity

Post by KeithBriggs »

Not seeing much of an improvement in capacity but do prefer to get to 100% sooner than later in the day. It's not worse. I'm sticking with the latest app-note parms. I don't have a parallel consumption curve yet to mirror/match before the change. 800ah ordered and awaiting shipment 640ah usable. $6940 for the merchandise. China to Honolulu shipping is 584. Awaiting DXG for remaining shipping to big island, customs and fees. Hopefully less than 1000 but not holding my breath. Replacing the 6 3.4 Phi's which are going to Colorado for new 8k system along with 3 - 3.5' Phi's I have there waiting. Nameplate 3.4s are 402ah but I'm figuring mine are 340ah or 270ah usable. The 3.5 will give me another 207 * .8 or 160ah usable for a total of 430ah.
Post Reply