SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

raysun
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

gtarolli wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:38 am I am not 100% convinced that return amps measures net, I have mine set up at 32 amps (400 ah batteries) and still it doesn't trigger sometimes even when I've completed absorb. It doesn't bother me too much as its just a notification, it doesn't really control anything. What is disturbing is when SOC jumps to 100% from the low 90's due to the net amps reaching 0, and I can still see the batteries are not full. I don't have charge termination control enabled, so the system stays in bulk mode and continues charging until Absorb is done. The net amps on the status page seems to be derated by the charge factor/efficiency, but the net amps on the meters page does not. It seems as if the non-derated net amps is used?
My system regularly reports a higher State of Charge than the battery charging would indicate. The drift is about 1% / day. When the FNDC/Victron indicate 100%, there is still charging to do to reach CPM.

I'm convinced the Corrected Net Battery figure is not precise. If for no other reason, Puekert's Constant is fixed for Lead Acid batteries on the FNDC. Changing Puekert's on the Victron to the LiFePO4 constant doesn't seem to make a material difference, however. This may be an artifact of my generally low discharge rate.

Peukert's not withstanding, Corrected Net Battery remains elusive to rationalize, so I don't really bother. This is another reason I choose the battery physics at full charge as my benchmark.

For me, using the 56.4V termination is like clockwork. I did some experimenting when I set up the Battery Charged parameters. I found that, at full charge, with the Charged Return Amps (Tail Amps in Victron-speak) set to the Phi specified 2% of C20 (9A in my case), the instantaneous charge current dives asymtotically to zero amps within the 1 minute Charged Time. I didn't care for that behavior, so "juked" the Charged Return Amps, setting it as 24A. Now, with the Charged Voltage = 64V, when the charging current hits 24A, the Charged Time counter starts. At the end of 1 minute, the charge current declines to 9A, and since Charged Time is met, the Charged Parameters Met flag is set and charging terminates.

That's as "dialed-in" as I can get it, and it works for me.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by gtarolli »

I agree, the 56.4v termination is the best compromise.

If your SOC is always a bit high, like 1% I would lower your charge efficiency by 1%, that should get it a lot closer to reality. It will increase the separation between corrected net battery amps and uncorrected, but IMO that's not critical, especially if you have charge termination disabled.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

gtarolli wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:17 am I agree, the 56.4v termination is the best compromise.

If your SOC is always a bit high, like 1% I would lower your charge efficiency by 1%, that should get it a lot closer to reality. It will increase the separation between corrected net battery amps and uncorrected, but IMO that's not critical, especially if you have charge termination disabled.
TBH, I'm not worried about Charge Efficiency, its at best an estimate when the battery is new, and a WAG when the battery ages.

Actually, I have charge termination enabled, it uses CPM as its trigger. It works great for me.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by sbrownian »

I always thought it was SWAG..
(Scientific ...)
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

sbrownian wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:37 am I always thought it was SWAG..
(Scientific ...)
There's little "S" involved when guessing charge efficiency of a used sealed battery. It's more "pull a number out of ones a... hat".
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by sbrownian »

True dat.. :mrgreen:
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by gtarolli »

I confused FLOAT mode with CPM. In the FNDC app note (see below) it describes how FLOAT mode causes SOC to jump to 100% as described below. I don't think you can disable this, and on my system with my settings it leaves the system in Bulk Mode. It's intended to do things like shut off generators in case CPM isn't met etc. Some of the app notes discuss tweaking Charge Factor so you reach 100% at the right time. I think 98% is a bit high, I have mine set to 94% which might be 1% too low, but I prefer it doesn't reach 100% before I see the rapid voltage rise to 56.4. I'de rather SOC be a little lower than reality than higher so if I don't reach 100% for a few days its a conservative estimate, not an optimistic hope.

Float Mode
This is a safety mode for batteries that are not able to reach the expected voltages. If triggered, the Float
Mode will cause the state of charge to jump to 100% to protect the battery. This mode is triggered
whenever the net ampere-hour value returned to the battery is greater than zero, the net charging current
is positive, and the battery voltage is less than the Charged Parameters Met Voltage by 0.4V (this is
independent of system voltage). Once triggered, the MATE3 will report a state of charge of 100%.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

That whole Float Mode battery protection scheme is vexing to me. I've seen it jump from 80% to 100% SoC. Not confidence inspiring. However, I don't rely on the "intermediate" 100% SoC indications. Nor do I run my battery near lower limits, so should the FNDC be off, it doesn't impact my world much. (That and the Victron doesn't have the FNDC's behavior. If the two monitors are more than a few % off, I take "full charge" corrective action to sync everything.)
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by JRHill »

Ergh. Don't we have other things to do? Really, if I thought I was going to move from FLAs to SimpliPHIs just to make them yet another hobby I would have bought another set of Trojans.

I really like the SimpliPHIs. I'm staying with 54.8 absorb and 53.6 float. I never hit a low end. I don't go to Max and don't go to Min. The Mate3/FNDC, well, ahem, hopefully you know your system. You have to watch the voltages. I watch the SOC with curiosity but never take the it seriously. But love the shunts.

Some folks like rayson have their system dialed in to a fine edge. I appreciate that feedback. But for me I just love not taking SGs and checking water. WooHoo!
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by sodamo »

LOL, i’m with you Jim. Enjoy reading Ray, Gary, etal, but i want minimal involvement for me. Hardest part I WANT to fo is check Optics and know we’ll make it to tomorrow. I feel safe that I won’t hit the low end because gen will fire up before getting there and confident that the high end is within limits.

Should I not take pleasure in others’ efforts? Nahhh. 😀😀😀😀
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

sodamo wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:14 pm LOL, i’m with you Jim. Enjoy reading Ray, Gary, etal, but i want minimal involvement for me. Hardest part I WANT to fo is check Optics and know we’ll make it to tomorrow. I feel safe that I won’t hit the low end because gen will fire up before getting there and confident that the high end is within limits.

Should I not take pleasure in others’ efforts? Nahhh. 😀😀😀😀
The ironic part is I spend 10x more time talking about my system on this thread than I do actually interacting with it.

I look at it much less than with my lead acid battery, and now I'm mostly: "whatever".

So what do I do with all my extra time? We built a local drive-in movie theater, and I show feature films on the weekend.

Oh, and that water/acid thing? If I wanted to open up dank containers and drop acid indiscriminately, I'd move back to the late 60's.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by KeithBriggs »

I too am looking forward to getting these tuned and "set it and (almost) forget it".

Oddly,At around 11:45AM I went from bulk to absorb, back to bulk, then absorb, then no charge and finally to float. All in about 7 minutes. Oddly, I never have much of an SOC drift but that's because I almost always get to float midday-ish. 16.2 days since CPM. I'm not sure what CPM does for you anyway. Grid will always kick at 50.4v if I forgot something.

raysun, similar to your thoughts, I saw a post that said ideally, after 100% go silent until SOC is 95% then bulk back to 100% and repeat if necessary. Singing the "never float if you love your batteries" chorus.

When the new batteries get here in about a month, I'll be back at it. I'm going to start dialing my float down per the gurus around here. Trying not to make too many changes at the same time.

Last drive in I remember going to was planet of the apes (original of course)....nothing like a good chick flick.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

..went from bulk to absorb, back to bulk, then absorb, then no charge and finally to float.
I'm not sure about this behavior, but it sounds like available charge current fell off as the Absorb phase was executing. What charge profile is being used? 54.4V or 56.4V?

"Oddly, I never have much of an SOC drift but that's because I almost always get to float midday-ish. 16.2 days since CPM. I'm not sure what CPM does for you anyway. "

How are you verifying the SoC being reported is the actual battery SoC? Properly set Battery Charged parameters will assure the FNDV SoC is synced to true 100%. The FNDC will reset to 100% under many conditions other than true full charge. I've seen it jump to 100% and then put another 60AH into the battery before CPM.

If the Battery Charged parameters are set properly, and its been 16.1 days since CPM, its an almost sure bet the reported SoC is off. The other possibility is the Battery Charged parameters are not set properly.

Getting to Float is not necessarily a "brass ring". It simply means the charger exhausted the Absorb timer. If Absorb is not properly set, then Float is entered at less than full battery charge. I saw this several times with lead batteries. Folks would hit Float and say "All good", when in fact, the Absorb Voltage or Absorb Time were too low. They wonder why their batteries lose capacity so quickly.

I find voltage as a metric for tracking SoC as unreliable with lithium batteries as it is for lead. Its so dependent on load that a particular voltage can indicate 70% SoC or 20% SoC. That's not particularly useful to me.

I'm off grid, so don't have HELCO to correct a low battery condition. I don't use AGS, and like not running my generator. I succeed far more now than with my old battery.

Lithium can be cycled more than once a day, but I don't see value in a 100% - 95% - 100% cycle. It would make sense if the daylight hours need to be exited as close to 100% as possible because the battery is undersized. However its trading high average SoC for anode degradation.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:42 pmSo what do I do with all my extra time? We built a local drive-in movie theater, and I show feature films on the weekend.
And week days?? But really, that was a cool come back!
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by KeithBriggs »

I've been on 56.4 for the last couple months hoping to repair capacity loss. I did that and loved getting to 100% not I don't want to be at 100 as much. Its so counter intuitive to not have your batter 100% at sunset if at all possible but I understand the chemistry.

I had put my battery capacity at 400 or 500 per outback so I didn't see the messages or something like that. Got comfortable with the fake SOC. Now I'm putting it back to 200 and decrementing until connect to the grid at 20% or 50.4. Trying to use the capacity to gauge my capacity.

I too trust and use voltage. I sort of have that voltage vs SOC graph burned into my corneas. When I say the SOC is in sync, its because right at 99% I see the typical voltage "spike" for lack of a better word and then hit 100%

FNDC 54v charged absorb 6 minutes, return amps are 8 and 98. All parms are exactly as Phi recommends. I only had float 0.2v higher but fixed that.

When we were in the dark ages last week, I too saw 100% before it was truly 100% per voltage. My SOC is optimistic with PHI parms.

I think the 100, 95 100 was a way to not camp at 100%. His main theme was "float bad, avoid float" His idea to avoid was the bulk at 95%, then shut er down.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by JRHill »

KeithBriggs wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:25 pmI too am looking forward to getting these tuned and "set it and (almost) forget it".
Heh. I'm still charging primarily off the inverter/genset. In a month I'll be tuning the FM80. But I'm heading into that with a bunch of experience from the winter season.

I can relate with Rayson's comment that I spend more time talking about it than dealing with it. I think I spend more time putting fuel in the generator than anything else other than staring at the Mate3. Mr. Keith, I'd bet you are already at or very close to your goal.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by KeithBriggs »

I put my battery capacity back to what it actually is and my SOC is haywire. Long ago they told me to double it - cant remember why. With actual its pretty crazy. when SOC goes negative, yes negative, mate shows 100% not 0% then when you go positive again its...well. relatively speaking...accurate. Very strange. Optics graphs are more like an etchsketch.

My mate had to be reset 3 times today after 4 more times the last 2 weeks. Glad I called. Only 2 weeks left on the warranty! about 45min on hold before got to tech support person. Its a two step phone process now.

Not sure I'm close on parms. Just keep taking arrows out and shooting them at it. Then the new batteries come and will be a new adventure.

Raysun, I did use float at 53.6v today but was too busy to follow it very closely. I still have plenty of loads in the afternoon so it seems like it simply "floated" at a lower SOC. Mate showed 98% for the afternoon. All the charge controllers are 0.6v higher than the inverter voltage. They are consistent too. The lowest voltage is with my hand held and its consistent everywhere I test it at each FM80, at each battery and at the FNDC. At least its lower and not higher so no overcharging going on. A little less capacity but likely more battery life.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

KeithBriggs wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:27 pm I put my battery capacity back to what it actually is and my SOC is haywire. Long ago they told me to double it - cant remember why. With actual its pretty crazy. when SOC goes negative, yes negative, mate shows 100% not 0% then when you go positive again its...well. relatively speaking...accurate. Very strange. Optics graphs are more like an etchsketch.

My mate had to be reset 3 times today after 4 more times the last 2 weeks. Glad I called. Only 2 weeks left on the warranty! about 45min on hold before got to tech support person. Its a two step phone process now.

Not sure I'm close on parms. Just keep taking arrows out and shooting them at it. Then the new batteries come and will be a new adventure.

Raysun, I did use float at 53.6v today but was too busy to follow it very closely. I still have plenty of loads in the afternoon so it seems like it simply "floated" at a lower SOC. Mate showed 98% for the afternoon. All the charge controllers are 0.6v higher than the inverter voltage. They are consistent too. The lowest voltage is with my hand held and its consistent everywhere I test it at each FM80, at each battery and at the FNDC. At least its lower and not higher so no overcharging going on. A little less capacity but likely more battery life.
TBH, I can't follow the manipulations. There's no way, in my understanding and experience, that putting in an incorrect (2X) battery capacity would result in proper readings.

When resetting the battery capacity, the FNDC would not have reliable readings until the battery reaches a true full charge. At that point, the FNDC should be unplugged from the Hub, and plugged back in to reset it.

Also, with the strange behavior described, I'd consider doing a Factory Reset, followed by an SoC reset, as described above, on the next battery full charge.

Why such a large gap between Charge Controller and Inverter voltages? If the CCs are calibrated and reading accurately, then the inverters should be "calibrated" as well. It can be done in firmware via the Mate. For a 48V inverter, the resolution is 0.4V, so in this case, the inverters should read within 0.2V of the charge controllers.

The CCs Float after the Absorb charge cycle, a behavior that cannot be defeated. To look at the Float behavior at any particular Float Voltage setting, I prefer monitoring the net battery current, rather than State of Charge,the latter, in your system, suspect by your own admission. The Mate's internal web application is good for this monitoring purpose.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by sodamo »

In my limited experience there was some confusion and originally mine were set at 100 amps per vs 75. The effect was even though I was still using say 30%, it was 30% of 1200 vs 30% of 900 resulting in higher SOC. SimpliPhi changed to the 75 per and so did I.

C O R R E C T I O N

What I should have said was using 300 Amps not 30%.
That meant 300 of 1200 was 25% (SOC =75%), 300 of 900 was 33%(SOC=67%). Using the larger amp size artificially gave higher SOC for same use. I was a bit ecstatic that my SOC didn’t dip below 70% any night.

Here’s hoping I stated correctly this time 😁
Last edited by sodamo on Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by JRHill »

I have been charging from the VFX all winter:

I was really pleased charging with the FM80 and charging to full at 55.2 for the SimpliPHIs. The FM80 immediately fell back to Float but was held at a higher voltage, 53.9 as I recall - higher than the Float set point. That's OK, the days are still short.

For now its all fine. But in the summer, longer days, I think I'll be setting the full voltage back a bit**. I can't control the fall back from Absorb to Float as it seems the FM80 does what it does regardless of programming.

** I am experimenting with a SimpliPHI voltage between 54.6 and 56.4. || 54.6 was a bit lean and I wanted to stay below 56.4. Going to 56.4 was like running the generator in absorb with less few amps BUT it worked marvelously and didn't run so long. Those charging runs and under normal loads it was obvious the next morning. But these SimpliPHI units are still new. So I go with the lower parameters.

Gosh it's nice to see 40+amps of solar again!
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by KeithBriggs »

Thanks everyone. Raysun, If I remember right, the higher capacity was to keep the thing from going "SOC berserk". This was before there was a "Simpliphi" battery option. What it does is halve (if doubled) all the soc amplitudes below 100% (once settled down. I had to make it 220ah instead of 200 to keep from going negative. Negative SOC rates right up there with imaginary numbers!

In my case @50.4v for 6 minutes, I would connect to the grid. The SOC being 47 and 50% depending on the load.

I too am now vexed by the tug of war that Lithium does not want to float and FM80's are stuck with "lead poisoning" requiring float.

The PHI app note states mistake with charge controller EQ voltage, they have 54.4 but the mate automatically changes the EQ to be not less than Absorb. Generally its not relevant since EQ should be disabled by setting EQ time to 0. The app note also does not make sense saying that mini-grid connect and AGS start should be 50.4v. That 50.4v is 20% SOC but they also state in Table 6.0 that at 20% with a C/2 load is 50.2v. My guess is that table 6.0 is accurate for a C/20 load.

I will try to do a hard reset on everything today. Great idea.

Jim, I look for longer days too. but its only 13h dark in winter 11 in summer here. I worry about snow for the CO install. 6/12 pitch will help but not being there, it will be interesting next winter watching it IF I get er done.

It is odd if not frustrating that the charge controllers ALL read 0.5 to 0.6v higher than then inverter. I'd somehow feel better if one was off or they were all over the place. That they are consistent and different is head scratching.
Last edited by KeithBriggs on Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

I too am now vexed by the tug of war that Lithium does not want to float and FM80's are stuck with "lead poisoning" requiring float
I am pretty happy with my Float strategy. It removes the primary problem with lithium at float.
It is odd if not frustrating that the charge controllers ALL read 0.5 to 0.6v higher than then inverter. I'd somehow feel better if one was off or they were all over the place. That they are consistent and different is head scratching.
Large as the discrepancies are, its actually a minor issue, and easily accomodated. If the voltage measurements at the respective devices' battery terminals are correct, then the inverter can be brought more in line using the inverter Calibrate function in the Mate/Optics. With 0.4V step resolution, likely calibration will only end up in the ballpark, but the ballpark will be lots closer to home.
KeithBriggs
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Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:56 pm
My RE system: 16k 2 8k Radian 4 FM80 48 300w panels, 6 3.4 simpliphi Grid-tied, HBX mode connect 50.4 disconnect 51.2.

Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by KeithBriggs »

You float at 53.2v. What are your absorb settings and charged voltage?

12:07PM, hit 100% 55.2v (mate/fndc reading)
12:09PM, 55.5v
12:11PM 55.9v 2 of 4 FM80s are absorbing while two are still in bulk
12:13PM still 55.9v
12:15PM 54.8v Charged FM80's silent for now but 3.2kw load.
12:20PM 1.2kw in, 3kw out, 52.9v 2 of 4 FM80's are floating and 2 are silent and still 100% since 12:07

Float is set at 53.2v.
JRHill
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1528
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:12 am
My RE system: VFXR3648, FM80, 3k panels, Mate3s, FNDC, 4ea 3.8 PHIs. EU7000is AGS.
Location: PNW
Contact:

Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by JRHill »

KeithBriggs wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:27 pm Thanks everyone.
Composition disappeared. I'm gonna split firewood.
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 4613
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

I float at 53.1V (53.2 was a mental typo.)

Absorb = 56.4V @ 0.1H
Charged Voltage = 56.0V
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