SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

sodamo
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by sodamo »

Last night’s run was something of a test. Most of last years runs were manual and at higher SOC due to how well this battery behaves. Thinking I will leave set at 20%, 54/.5 for tonight just to look. Suspect I will change to 25%, 54/.5 as primary with 50.8v 2 hour & 50.4v 2 min as safety triggers. Now that I’m pretty happy seeing 56.1/CPM at high end, gaining confidence at AGS/low end will feel good.
David
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by JRHill »

sodamo wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:13 am Jim, that was my thought except my Absorb time is .5 hr. And it only ran 5:33m.
That's barely enough to warm up! Everything is different now with the PHIs.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by sodamo »

With the price of lp @$5/g and both diesel and gas around $3 I prefer the sun. 😁
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by KeithBriggs »

Getting caught up on this thread. Agree. Sun is free after sunk costs to harvest it. The other day, I had the worst sun day in 3 years 8.8kwh for the whole day. Never a glimpse of brightness. It was 6AM all day. Previous record was 13.3kwh.

Another deluge last night. I after silicone taping all the seams I put 18 gal of silicone roof coating on the guest house in early December. Perfect timing.

I don't have a generator but I have tried load grid transfer which is similar the last week. I have starting and ending DC voltage triggers and also limit the AC voltage (in another area) for the battery's health. I noticed an odd thing. I would be at 20% at 50.x and would put 4 - 5kwh in and be at 30% and be like at 52.4 which is higher than it would normally be. Of course it dropped down and got back to "normal". A cycle is considered 100% SOC drained to whatever you drain to then somehow charge it back up to 100%. Call it noon to noon. I worry that load grid transfer or a generator temp load is an EXTRA cycle and would be shortening the life of the batteries.

In HBX mode, I simply connect to grid and grid handles the loads and no battery charging until sunrise. I'm going back to that. I think an undersized generator that can load the batteries gently while handling the loads is the way to go on the gen-as-grid side.

The PHI's bms just doesn't let you stay above 54.x for more than a couple minutes. I'm not sure how much packing can possibly happen with so little time at that part of the cycle.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

The PHI's bms just doesn't let you stay above 54.x for more than a couple minutes. I'm not sure how much packing can possibly happen with so little time at that part of the cycle.
I don't quite understand this. IME - my 3.8-48 blocks, when charged at constant voltage 54.4V take 89 minutes to reach full charge.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by KeithBriggs »

I'm currently at 88% SOC at 11:05AM

2.7k in, 0.5k out 53.9vdc
3.7k in, 4.6k out 53.1vdc
8.4k in, 6.4k out 53.9vdc
10.2k in, 5.0k out 54.5vdc

hottub starts heating about 5 minutes after the intermatic timer turns it on at 11AM, clouds coming and going.
FM80s read battery voltage higher than optics dashboard. Must be their output voltage.

I got sidetracked. Now its 12:50PM
SOC already hit 100%
Now its 99% and here's several more readings. Does this make sense?

2.7k in, 3.6k out 53.9vdc
2.7k in, 3.3k out 53.1
7.6k in, 7.7k out 53.5
5.7k in, 7.7k out 53.0
4.6k in, 7.5k out 52.7
5.9k in, 7.5k out 52.8
2.7k in, 7.7k out 52.2 98%
2.5k in, 6.6k out 52.3
1.8k in, 1.7k out 53.1 97%
Last edited by KeithBriggs on Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
raysun
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

What charging profile is being used?
Absorb 54.4V @ 2H
or
Absorb 56.4V @ 0.1H
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by KeithBriggs »

56.4v for 0.1h
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

Can't tell from tracking the figures, especially after 100% SoC.

Is Float = 54V?

I've noticed charging loiters around 54.4-54.5 then speeds through to termination. Here's my charging termination today. Charge parameters met at 15:05, so 56.4 was reached at 15:04. By 15:15 the battery was well on the way to Float at 53.1.

01/29/2021 14:00 54.5
01/29/2021 14:15 53.9
01/29/2021 14:30 54.2
01/29/2021 14:45 54.6
01/29/2021 15:00 55.3
01/29/2021 15:15 53.7
01/29/2021 15:30 53.2
01/29/2021 15:45 53.2
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

FM80s read battery voltage higher than optics dashboard. Must be their output voltage.
The Mate/Optics dashboard report voltage from the FNDC if present. The FM80s OUT voltage is reported from their internal voltmeter. Both voltage readings can be calibrated.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by KeithBriggs »

Thanks for that info. Similar to what I see. You rocket up at the end too.

I have been trying float at 54.2v for a week.

Would you trust the FM80s vs the Mate? When I checked the FM80s, they were actually 54.2, 54.1, 54.2 and 54.3; I just gave the average of 54.2v. The FM80's seem to always show roughly a 0.4v higher than the mate. Not sure if by design or just the non-calibrated differential.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by JRHill »

KeithBriggs wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:33 amWould you trust the FM80s vs the Mate?
As I understand it the Mate3x is displaying the FM80 info. So it's not an issue of trusting the mate3x or not. If you have an FNDC you can get other numbers based upon the shunts which I actually prefer. The shunts cover the overhead as well.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

KeithBriggs wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:33 am Thanks for that info. Similar to what I see. You rocket up at the end too.

I have been trying float at 54.2v for a week.

Would you trust the FM80s vs the Mate? When I checked the FM80s, they were actually 54.2, 54.1, 54.2 and 54.3; I just gave the average of 54.2v. The FM80's seem to always show roughly a 0.4v higher than the mate. Not sure if by design or just the non-calibrated differential.
I trust both my FM80s and the FNDC/Mate, but I have calibrated all to track the battery voltage accurately.

IIRC, if an FNDC is present, the Mate displays its voltage readings.

I believe the FM80 captures the day's highest voltage as well as the periodic "snapshots".

I think Phi recommends a Float voltage of 54V.

Personally, I use a lower voltage for Float. I don't want the battery held at 100% SoC.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:36 amI don't want the battery held at 100% SoC.
And by that the question still remains what is 100% SOC? It seems Mr Briggs full voltages were low and Absorb? Some of us are not doing the full SimpliPHI capacity of 56.4 but for 54.6 and gauging SOC from there. And at the same time not going to the low end of voltage and SOC. Glory and halleluiah!

Now comes the increasing sunny season. It's absolutely screwing up my SOC vs battery voltage pattern. My FNDC battery status light is green continuously now. Do I change settings? Nope. Nope and nope. The charger cuts off reliably. It's not the time for busy button pushing.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by JRHill »

sodamo wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:10 pm With the price of lp @$5/g and both diesel and gas around $3 I prefer the sun. 😁
Do you have the LP kit on your EU7k?
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by sodamo »

Jim, no. run gas in Honda, Kohler is Propane, MEP is diesel.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by KeithBriggs »

I put float back to 54.0v this morning. raysun, what do you float at? During float, aren't the batteries basically in neutral as the charge controllers are supplying the loads.
I'll follow raysun's 15 minute interval

10:45AM in 5.0k, out 0.5k mate 54.1v SOC 69%
11:00AM in 9.5k, out 6.4k, mate 53.9v SOC 75%
11:15AM in 9.6k, out 6.0k, mate 54.1v SOC 80%
11:30AM in 9.8k, out 11.2k, mate 52.6v SOC 80%
11:45AM in 10.2k, out 12.2k, mate 52.2v SOC 77%
12:00PM in 10.3k, out 6.0k, mate 54.4v SOC 82%
12:15PM in 10.4k, out 6.5k, mate 54.4v SOC 85%
12:30PM in 7.6k, out 2.8k, mate 54.6v SOC 89%
12:45PM in 8.8k out 3.8k, mate 54.9v SOC 94%

12:50PM in 8.3k, out 4.0k, mate 55.5v SOC 97%
12:55PM in 6.8k, out 3.6k, mate 55.9v SOC 100% but still charging dropped back to 99% which I've seen before even tho producing
12:57PM in 0, out 3.8k, mate 53.6v SOC 99%
1:00PM in 3.9, out 3.9, mate 53.6v SOC 99% checked FM80s and all were already floating. Never saw absorb.

Standard float output for me: mate will show 53.6v while FM80's show 54.0v (usual plus 0.4v)
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by sbrownian »

KeithBriggs wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:33 am Thanks for that info. Similar to what I see. You rocket up at the end too.

I have been trying float at 54.2v for a week.

Would you trust the FM80s vs the Mate? When I checked the FM80s, they were actually 54.2, 54.1, 54.2 and 54.3; I just gave the average of 54.2v. The FM80's seem to always show roughly a 0.4v higher than the mate. Not sure if by design or just the non-calibrated differential.
Most A/D conversions specify +/- one least significant digit when talking about calibration accuracy.

It really depends on if the A/D conversion happening in the background resolves to .01, or a granularity of say, three or four counts per .1v change.

It's certainly a good idea to calibrate all the inputs to 'toggle' between .1 increments as close to each other as possible, just bear in mind that inherant +/- one least significant digit.
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

I put float back to 54.0v this morning. raysun, what do you float at? During float, aren't the batteries basically in neutral as the charge controllers are supplying the loads.
Yes, Float is designed to hold the battery at 100% SoC while supplying loads. The only issue for me is, I don't want to hold the battery at 100% SoC. Instead of net positive current flowing into the battery, I prefer net negative current. I set Float to 53.2V. The battery discharges 1% (4.5AH) reaching 53.2, then "bleeds" 100-200mA until Float ends for the day, battery at 98% SoC.
Never saw absorb.
At 56.4V termination, blink and you'll miss "Absorb". Best place to check is on the FM80.
Screenshot_20210130-150319_Chrome.jpg
My system "Absorbs" for 1 minute. Yours likely shows 6 minutes.
Standard float output for me: mate will show 53.6v
The FNDC needs calibrating.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by sodamo »

Hit 100%, CPM for 1st time since 1/24. Only 2.2 hours of gen time split over 2 nights to get me thru this stormy/cloudy period. Have to say I’m happy.

Seems once I hit 100% it backs off and hovers 98-99% until sun weakens. At this point I believe I am pleased with the performance at current settings. I did bump my Radian AGS SOC start to 22% for the Kohler genset. The FX AGS SOC will be at 25% and my primary back up using the MEP (once I get new batteries) or the Honda 7000. Need to tie Honda back into FX AUX.

Think I will double check all settings against the SimpliPhi Integration document and then email mine to SimpliPhi for comment.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by KeithBriggs »

David, CPM is like having your favorite dessert!

Calibration - a new can of worms:
Voltages: Charge controllers show 54. 54, 54.1, & 54, Dashboard ie Mate ie FNDC shows 53.7 and both inverters show 53.6 and my volt meter reads 53.4 at each battery.
I can calibrate up to +/- 0.5v on the FM80 and up to +/- 8 CFs on the FNDC. I'm not sure what CF's are. I think raysun mentioned CFs before but I was clueless.

I did absorb at 12:51 until 12:56 per the event log. So it happens before I am 100%. Duh, that's right. Screwed my head back on straight and tightened the screws.

Clear instructions for my leaf when going to Colorado for 5 or 6 months is to have SOC at 40-60 but that's long term. You're saying you don't like 54.0v or you don't like them in neutral near the top of the usable SOC even for a several hours? Why not set your charged voltage to 53.2 and let them rest at the gentler voltage without the rise and fall above it?
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

KeithBriggs wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:22 pm David, CPM is like having your favorite dessert!

To calibrate, trust the FM80 average, the FNDC or test independently?

I did absorb at 12:51 until 12:56 per the event log. So it happens before I am 100%. Duh. that's right. Screwed my head back on straight and tightened the nuts.

Clear instructions for my leaf when going to Colorado for 5 or 6 months is to have SOC at 40-60 but that's long term. You're saying you don't like 54.0v or you don't like them in neutral near the top of the usable SOC even for a several hours? Why not set your charged voltage to 53.2 and let them rest at the gentler voltage without the rise and fall above it?
You might have been directing this post at me.

Charged Parameters Met for a new battery are derived strictly from the vendor specs. In the case of my Phi 3.8, using the recommended 56.4V termination, Charged Return Amps are specified at 2% (9A). Charged Voltage is set to 0.4V below 56.4. Charged Time is set to 1 minute. Upon reaching 56.4V and holding it for 1 minute, the battery drops to 9A.

Phi, and most Li battery manufacturers recommend against float charging. Yet they recommend 54V Float for the FM charge controllers, as Float cannot be defeated by anything but sundown. At 54V, the battery is not at a "neutral" state. If examined closely, it will be seen that charge continues to flow into the battery, albeit a small current. Most research recommends against holding the battery at 100% SoC. I don't need to, as I have plenty of capacity, so I don't hold it there. My battery, my choice, simple as that. The daily float at 100% may not be damaging, though it inevitably will contribute to dendrite buildup to some minor degree. A small discharge from 100% never will.

So if I don't care to get to 100% SoC or stay there, why go there? Simple, its the only point in the battery SoC that the battery monitor will synchronize. As you may have noticed, when the battery hits "true" 100% SoC, the monitor may lead or lag the battery status by an amount, large or small. On my system, it generally lags by about 1% per day. The monitor reaches 100%, then another 5AH must be added to hit CPM.

I'm perfectly happy having the battery loiter between 80% and 40%, the monitor can drift for three weeks and I'm still within the parameters set by the manufacturer. In practice, my system hits 100% at least once a week, if not more frequently, so I don't obsess about it like with lead acid.

The Leaf battery storage recommendation of 40 - 60% SoC is typical for lithium ion. Storing at the extremes, 100% or 0% is bad for service life. I used to have this snazzy German electric outboard motor made by Torqeedo, and 50% SoC winter storage was their guideline.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by KeithBriggs »

hey raysun, that helps a lot. I'm starting to see why Ray @PHI said that either scenario works. They are pretty resilient if you don't tax them. It makes the 54.4 look like a better charging method than the latest. Goal would be to reach 100% AT sunset With 800ah coming I will have the same "problem" you do. At this point, I plan to lower all my thresholds so 100% is more like 95%. Oddly, I have all the latest parms exactly how PHI's latest spec sheet and double checked and yet its been over two weeks since CPM. My return amps is 8 but maybe I should make it 7 or 6.

Its interesting that most common forum number for lithium float is 54.4. Its back to my cup analogy. Its not good to have the cup full because its too easy to spill. Bad things can and do happen when full. The fact that I'm gone for 5 months and the system doesn't work too hard means I float longer...bad. With your lower float value, do the charge controllers sit in a "charged" state after you reach 100%?
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

KeithBriggs wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:59 am hey raysun, that helps a lot. I'm starting to see why Ray @PHI said that either scenario works. They are pretty resilient if you don't tax them. It makes the 54.4 look like a better charging method than the latest. Goal would be to reach 100% AT sunset With 800ah coming I will have the same "problem" you do. At this point, I plan to lower all my thresholds so 100% is more like 95%. Oddly, I have all the latest parms exactly how PHI's latest spec sheet and double checked and yet its been over two weeks since CPM. My return amps is 8 but maybe I should make it 7 or 6.

Its interesting that most common forum number for lithium float is 54.4. Its back to my cup analogy. Its not good to have the cup full because its too easy to spill. Bad things can and do happen when full. The fact that I'm gone for 5 months and the system doesn't work too hard means I float longer...bad. With your lower float value, do the charge controllers sit in a "charged" state after you reach 100%?
I'm not convinced that the extended Absorb at 54.4 (for 1:29 in my case) is a kinder and gentler charging profile than Bulk to 56.4V. Folks who have used the long Absorb method have reported capacity loss in their battery. Correlation is, of course, not causation, and many factors may be in play. It will be interesting to guage long-term effects from the two profiles.

By the nature of my setup, the battery charges at roughly 60A, or 10A per block. That satisfies the "slow charge is better than fast charge" mantra.

Curtailing charging at less than 100% SoC sounds attractive, until the monitoring has drifted to the point its hard to tell exactly where on the less than 100% SoC curve one is. I've taken a close look at cell voltage as the metric, but its impractical, as I'm loathe to take my battery off-line regularly for an extended period to take the measurements. I'm trying to become less of a slave to the "tweak factor" not more. 100% SoC is easy to achieve, unambiguous, and the monitors I employ happily sync automatically at that point. I use the FNDC and a Victron BMV700. They track so well I'm thinking of qualifying them for the U.S. Synchronized Swimming team.

My battery stays at 100% SoC for exactly 60 seconds every full charge cycle. Once Charged Parameters Met, the FM80s go silent, as they do with any battery, until the float voltage is reached. Depending on instantaneous load, that may be a few minutes or a few hours. For my battery, 4.5AH (1% SoC) of discharge is required for my selected Float voltage to be reached. By the end of the day, my system exits Float at 98% SoC. The battery will have had a discharge current proportional to load and available PV harvest, but is typically in the -0.1A to -0.2A range.

As stated previously, I don't care for the 54V-54.4V Float target, as I don't want, or need, the battery held at 100% SoC, even for a few hours. There's no benefit to it and there's a degree of downside. I firmly believe that 100% SoC Float mania is caused by a history of chronic lead poisoning.
Last edited by raysun on Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
gtarolli
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by gtarolli »

I am not 100% convinced that return amps measures net, I have mine set up at 32 amps (400 ah batteries) and still it doesn't trigger sometimes even when I've completed absorb. It doesn't bother me too much as its just a notification, it doesn't really control anything. What is disturbing is when SOC jumps to 100% from the low 90's due to the net amps reaching 0, and I can still see the batteries are not full. I don't have charge termination control enabled, so the system stays in bulk mode and continues charging until Absorb is done. The net amps on the status page seems to be derated by the charge factor/efficiency, but the net amps on the meters page does not. It seems as if the non-derated net amps is used?
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