SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

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raysun
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SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

I commissioned my battery at 56.4V charge termination. I used Absorb=56.4 @ 0.1H and it works fine. The charge termination is unambiguous and by setting Charged Parameters Met parms properly is finely configurable. Charge Termination can execute reliably in as little as 1-2 min.

Its sobering to see the charging amperage go from 85A to 0A in 60 seconds.

I lost the reference in the docs, so will need to find again the tables that showed charge cycles v.s. termination voltage.

I recently changed to 54.4V termination. It also works fine, Absorb 54.4V @ 2H. Its a very smooth Absorb curve, but the cells seem "stubborn" at the lower charging voltage. Charge Termination occurs at 90min with Charged Return Amps = 9A (2%).

The lower charging voltage has higher possibility of leaving "photons on the table" during solar PV harvest.

Other folks have expressed dissatisfaction with the 54.4 profile. Here's a thread to catalog the issues.

I think I'll go back to 56.4V.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by Mike Curran »

At 9A, your charged return amps is low if you're going with the recommended 4A per battery.
Screenshot_20201211-102808_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
For your system that'd be 24A for end of charge. The 9A setting could easily explain "the cells seem "stubborn" at the lower charging voltage. Charge Termination occurs at 90min with Charged Return Amps = 9A (2%)"

I didn't know the 2% "rule" applied to Lithium batteries - thought that was for FLAs.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

Mike Curran wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:29 am At 9A, your charged return amps is low if you're going with the recommended 4A per battery.Screenshot_20201211-102808_Adobe Acrobat.jpg For your system that'd be 24A for end of charge. The 9A setting could easily explain "the cells seem "stubborn" at the lower charging voltage. Charge Termination occurs at 90min with Charged Return Amps = 9A (2%)"

I didn't know the 2% "rule" applied to Lithium batteries - thought that was for FLAs.
SimpliPhi has published a lot of charging and integration information, some of it contradicting other. The table above is from an app note that was superceded by an integration guide that lists this:
Screenshot_20201211-054551_Drive.jpg
The "subbornness" I was referring to was in the earlier to mid stages of the 54.4V Absorb phase. The SoC needle would scarcely move, even with substantial charge current input. It may simply be an artifact of the FNDC interacting with the lithium charging characteristics.

The truth of it is, when the battery reaches termination voltage, or "full charge", the charging current drops rapidly and can reach zero in a matter of minutes. The tail amps (end amps, charged return amps) value doesn't have the same relationship to the chemical action of charging in lithium as it does in lead acid.

Thanks for the reminder though. I was using the 9A value with the 54.4V Absorb profile. I've switched back to the 56.4V "Absorb" profile, and don't want the charging current to crash through the floor at termination. I was previously using 15A because that appeared to be on the "knee" of the downward slope of the charging curve. I'm going to try 24A and see what the termination behavior is at that tail current value.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by Mike Curran »

Thanks for that - I revisited the Simpliphi app note on OB's website to see your reference.

Having a Skybox, I wasn't paying attention to the details for non-Skybox systems and had the older guidance stored on my device.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

I attended one of the SimpliPhi webinars on advanced battery charging. Admittedly the presenter was from the sales team rather than the engineering team, but a few points made really struck me. One was the almost "whatever" attitude toward charging voltages. Coming from a lead-acid background of needing precise charging voltage targets, it sounded strange to hear: "You can charge to 54 volts, 56 volts, even 57 volts..."

I had to go back to the documents and studies in an attempt to rationalize the statement. Turns out, its not totally wrong.
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- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
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- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by Mike Curran »

Good to hear considering we're all using a variety of charge settings.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

Yep. Now the unanswered question is: how do the various setting impact performance and cycle life?
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by gtarolli »

>>Now the unanswered question is: how do the various setting impact performance and cycle life?
Agreed!

This morning I got down to 30% SOC and the voltage was 51.2v with low loads. At 35% I measured 50.4v with 75amps of load, roughly a C/5 load. For my 3.4 batteries a C/2 load should result in 50.5v at 20% SOC, so it seems I have lost over 15%. I never have a C/2 load so I'm happy if I could sustain a C/4 load at 50.5v with 20% SOC.

p.s. I didn't reach 100% SOC the other day but did the day before so "drift" and other errors could account for 5%, but I'm a bit concerned about 15%. A year ago it was a lot better, the batteries are now almost 3 years old so about 1000 cycles.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

gtarolli wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:28 pm >>Now the unanswered question is: how do the various setting impact performance and cycle life?
Agreed!

This morning I got down to 30% SOC and the voltage was 51.2v with low loads. At 35% I measured 50.4v with 75amps of load, roughly a C/5 load. For my 3.4 batteries a C/2 load should result in 50.5v at 20% SOC, so it seems I have lost over 15%. I never have a C/2 load so I'm happy if I could sustain a C/4 load at 50.5v with 20% SOC.

p.s. I didn't reach 100% SOC the other day but did the day before so "drift" and other errors could account for 5%, but I'm a bit concerned about 15%. A year ago it was a lot better, the batteries are now almost 3 years old so about 1000 cycles.
Have you been in contact with SimpliPhi about a capacity test and warranty?
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

Mike

"Thanks for the reminder though. I was using the 9A value with the 54.4V Absorb profile. I've switched back to the 56.4V "Absorb" profile, and don't want the charging current to crash through the floor at termination. I was previously using 15A because that appeared to be on the "knee" of the downward slope of the charging curve. I'm going to try 24A and see what the termination behavior is at that tail current value."

I wasn't home to watch the charge termination, but 24A seems to be fine for the trigger. IMO, when the cells have reached the 3.5 volt range, any Charged Return Amps value is going to do the trick, as long as its not too low. When I first tested the 54.4V cutoff, I think I had it set to 9A, and when the precipitous current decline occurred at end of charge, the charge current crashed right through 9A and before the Mate could respond in one minute charge current actually went to zero. That seemed way too much "Sturm und Drang" for charging, so I raised it, settling on 15A. That worked fine, but 25A cuts off charging just that little bit sooner. Since I don't care to butt my battery's head that hard against the 100% SoC wall, I like 24A even better.

I may play with inching Charged Return Amps up a bit more, even.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by gtarolli »

raysun wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:14 pm
gtarolli wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:28 pm >>Now the unanswered question is: how do the various setting impact performance and cycle life?
Agreed!

This morning I got down to 30% SOC and the voltage was 51.2v with low loads. At 35% I measured 50.4v with 75amps of load, roughly a C/5 load. For my 3.4 batteries a C/2 load should result in 50.5v at 20% SOC, so it seems I have lost over 15%. I never have a C/2 load so I'm happy if I could sustain a C/4 load at 50.5v with 20% SOC.

p.s. I didn't reach 100% SOC the other day but did the day before so "drift" and other errors could account for 5%, but I'm a bit concerned about 15%. A year ago it was a lot better, the batteries are now almost 3 years old so about 1000 cycles.
Have you been in contact with SimpliPhi about a capacity test and warranty?
Not yet, its on my list. First I want to resolve my generator issues (Honda EM5000) as that has a 3 yr warranty and is 1 yr old, then the batteries. I don't have a copy of the Simpiphi warranty - can someone post a link? or pointer?
raysun
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

gtarolli wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:15 am
raysun wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:14 pm
gtarolli wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:28 pm >>Now the unanswered question is: how do the various setting impact performance and cycle life?
Agreed!

This morning I got down to 30% SOC and the voltage was 51.2v with low loads. At 35% I measured 50.4v with 75amps of load, roughly a C/5 load. For my 3.4 batteries a C/2 load should result in 50.5v at 20% SOC, so it seems I have lost over 15%. I never have a C/2 load so I'm happy if I could sustain a C/4 load at 50.5v with 20% SOC.

p.s. I didn't reach 100% SOC the other day but did the day before so "drift" and other errors could account for 5%, but I'm a bit concerned about 15%. A year ago it was a lot better, the batteries are now almost 3 years old so about 1000 cycles.
Have you been in contact with SimpliPhi about a capacity test and warranty?
Not yet, its on my list. First I want to resolve my generator issues (Honda EM5000) as that has a 3 yr warranty and is 1 yr old, then the batteries. I don't have a copy of the Simpiphi warranty - can someone post a link? or pointer?
I'm really hoping their more liberal(ish) new warranty language would apply. I believe the old warranty language required the battery install be done by a nuclear physicist and personally blessed with holy water by the Pope himself.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

I had a chance to monitor the end of charge today, with termination voltage = 56.4.

In order of events:
The system reported 100% SoC at 56.3V and -1AH Corrected Net Battery.

The battery reached 56.4 @ 35.5A charging current and the CNB = 0AH.

The charge current started to decline and reached 24A Charged Parameters Met. CNB = 0AH. The Charged Time counter = 1 minute started its countdown.

The charging current dropped below 24A to about 10A when the charge controllers entered Silent mode.

That, I believe, is about as "dialed in" as the charging profile can get. I'm happy with these results.

*EDIT* In the time it took to post this, the system has entered Float @ 53.1V, 99% SoC, and -1AH corrected net battery.

Spousal unit is in the kitchen making chicken sandwiches in the 1200W panini iron. The system doesn't even blink.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by sodamo »

Guess I’m still missing something.
Only 91% so far today
3105F583-ED61-4A02-BDCB-89F02F7B6D96.jpeg
Looks like it’s gonna be 88 days since hitting parameters. Still not even close to 56 volts even though absorb is set 56.4 i did change my return amps from 18 to 24.
092AFD42-33C3-4CBB-A03E-0871754276C3.jpeg
Still haven’t figured out how / where / you get those readings from FNDC.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

When I want to track fast changing events, I actually use the Mate's web application. It shows most all the same data as Optics but in near real-time.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by sodamo »

Soooo, has to be witnessed real time, no looking at logged data. Guess that will pretty much leave me out unless I happen on by accident.

Overall, been very happy with my SimpliPhis. Curious why I don’t see the 56v you guys do or not meeting parameters anymore. 91% / 54.4 were my highs today.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

I'm going to start logging continuous data stream via a Victron BMV700 to a PC.

You can get evidence of battery state by looking at the FNDC daily data, on the day, as it shows highest and lowest voltage and time, etc.

My high voltage event lasts all of 120 seconds at most, by design. It does precede and coincide with Charged Parameters Met.

I've noticed that to the very end if the charge cycle, considerable charge current is needed.

I've said it before and I wasn't being my usual smart-a.. I would actually prefer never seeing full charge. If there was just some way to keep track of SoC accurately.
Last edited by raysun on Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by sodamo »

01A259C5-AEF7-4DD8-A15F-C23B2A658F9A.png
Yup, this one

Forgot to ask. Did you add a new shunt for The Victron?
David
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

Yes. I have the Victron shunt right at my battery rack's negative bus bar. It's in series with the OB shunt on the negative bus bar in the Flexpower Two DC panel.

In truth, I have three shelves in my IBR-3-48 battery rack, each with two SimpliPhi 3.8-48 battery blocks. I have one Victron on the battery negative lead off each of the SimpliPhi parallel bus bars that connect each pair of monoblocks. A total of three BMV700 monitors. I wanted to see if there was any per-pair imbalance. In the end, metering precision and natural fluctuations rendered the experiment inconclusive. I may simply end up monitoring per-pair voltage.

In a study of the psychology of confirmation bias, I'm picking the one BMV700 that most closely tracked data from the FNDC. They are uncannily close in SoC readings. That single BMV700 will be my continuous data monitor.

I'm not sure what I will divine from all this, but with $16k of battery, I'm willing to invest a few hundred bucks in additional monitoring to help manage them, and to support any warranty claim that should arise, heaven forbid.

That, and the application engineer I talked to at Phi mentioned they thought the Victron did a better job with their battery. If that's their bias, I'm willing to enable it.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

sodamo wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:48 pm 01A259C5-AEF7-4DD8-A15F-C23B2A658F9A.png

Yup, this one

Forgot to ask. Did you add a new shunt for The Victron?
Yep. Between the Status page, and the Meters page, a wealth of operational data is served up, hot off the wire.
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Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

sodamo wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:21 pm Guess I’m still missing something.
Only 91% so far today
3105F583-ED61-4A02-BDCB-89F02F7B6D96.jpeg

Looks like it’s gonna be 88 days since hitting parameters. Still not even close to 56 volts even though absorb is set 56.4 i did change my return amps from 18 to 24.

092AFD42-33C3-4CBB-A03E-0871754276C3.jpeg

Still haven’t figured out how / where / you get those readings from FNDC.
Truth be told, you need more PV panels. Not that you do really. If the SoC is staying above 20%, you don't really have much to worry about.

However, if filling the tank full is what you're shooting for, a bit more charging muscle will help. I'm suprised watching these things charge that they can be at 95% and draw 100A charge without breaking a sweat. My system is typically feeding them 60A, so a slow rate charge of 10A per block. They can be drawing 60A at 50% SoC, and still drawing 60A at 98% SoC.

I have another 1660W of panel I haven't connected, because frankly, I don't need it with the sunny days we've been having here. As soon as we start seeing cloud cover, I'll bring 'em on line. For now, one FM80 has 3520W array, and the other has 1660W. We burn 14kW / day in consumption. Every time I think about maybe running the generator, I go lie on the couch until the notion passes. The 5kW of PV drives everything just fine in any half decent weather.

Less than that would leave the charging cycle starved for charge, IMO, but only in the context of hitting 56.4V. Not in the context of having an operationally sufficient charge on the battery.
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 4540
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

"Looks like it’s gonna be 88 days since hitting parameters."

It would be interesting for you to do a generator assisted charge one day, and watch when the FNDC says 100% SoC v.s. when the FNDC says Charged Parameters Met. The Amp Hour differential would be a solid clue as to how far off its drifted in 90 days of no sync.
gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 419
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda EM5000 generator + one EU3000
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by gtarolli »

Maybe temp compensation is lowering the absorb voltage? Check the FM80 screen and look for Target Voltage - this is only available on the FM display (see the manual). Although if you look at the temp. compensated voltage in the Radian that will give you an idea of how much temp comp is changing things. However, temp should only change things by .5v to 1v max I think. I use a trick where I set absorb to 56.4v and then set the limited temp comp max to 56, so even if it tries to lower it by .4v it will still be at 56 and is always clamped at 56v so it never goes higher.

If your efficiency (charge factor) is set too low, you could be 100% even though FNDC thinks it is at 91%, but I doubt you have it set low enough to cause that kind of error. And if you are , the voltage should be at absorb. Assuming it is sunny and your PV can produce more, it seems like the FM80 has reached its absorb limit voltage. You can test if your PV can produce more by simply turning on a toaster or hair dryer or microwave, i.e. a 1800 watt load. If the PV output jumps that means the FM's think they are at absorb voltage. Then you need to figure out why that is.

So... I would check the target voltage on each FM and see what they say. That's the first thing, if the target is low you need to figure out why. Temp comp is the likely culprit. Since you are off-grid (right?) I assume you aren't in any weird mini-grid or hbx mode or anything like that.

Note if you ran the generator , it is also using a temp. compensated voltage, but you can see that in Optics. That would give you more info.
gtarolli
Forum Guru
Posts: 419
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:39 am
My RE system: Outback: off-grid
- 1 GS8048A, Mate3, FlexNetDC, Hub10.3
- 2 FLEXmax 80
- 1 FLEXmax 60
- 30 (10x3) 300w panels (9000w total)
- 6 SimpliPhi 3.4 kWh LI batteries (400ah , 20kWh)
- 1 Honda EM5000 generator + one EU3000
Location: Wainiha, Kauai, HI

Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by gtarolli »

After looking at your Optics data some more, temp was 23c so I doubt temp. comp. is changing things. I would still look at the FM target voltage though. For the day shown it looks like you didn't have enough sun. you were at 80% at midnight, so 8kwh short of 100% SOC. you used 11kwh and produced 18, but often you need about 10% more than your loads due to inverter inefficiency, so your net was < 6kw for the day approx, still 2kwh or maybe 5% short of full. If you haven't hit 100% in while maybe there's been some drift?

I produce about 23kwh per day with 9kw of panels, I think you have 2x my system so on some of the recent days you should have had the capability to produce 40kwh, plenty to hit 100% SOC (I am on Kauai so I assume your sun is approx the same recently). I would run a large load and see if the PV output jumps just to make sure there's excess. I usually hide inverter data and just look at Solar and From Battery. From your graph it seems like you didn't have enough PV, but that also doesn't make sense unless it was cloudy. I produce over 4 kwh around noon for 3-4 hrs, just as a reference.
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 4540
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: SimpliPhi 3.8 54.4 v.s. 56.4

Post by raysun »

SimpliPhi specifies against using temperature compensation. I never really thought about whether it comes into play during the constant current (Bulk) phase. Of course it would certainly impact the constant voltage phases (Absorb, Float.)

If limited Temp Comp works in the manner described, then the Absorb end point can be accomodated. How does it work for Float?
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