LI battery tuning

raysun
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

Yep. 100% SoC and Charge Params Met are two related but different things.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by gtarolli »

My experience with LI batteries is that charging is similar to discharging. All the amps in/out seem to occur in a very narrow voltage range. For discharge it is between 53 and 52v, or more specifically 52.8 and 52.3 let's say. While charging most of the amps in seem to be between 54v and 54.8v. In the morning voltage rises quickly to above 53v even at low SOC (< 50%) and then goes quickly to 54v , but then goes up very slowly to 54.8v. At about 90% SOC and it rises quickly to 55v and beyond depending on your absorb settings. With a 56v absorb setting, once you get above about 55.4v or so, the batteries are pretty full no matter what and so the last .6v goes very fast. At a 55v absorb setting you can reach 55v at 80% SOC if you have 9kw of PV (400ah of LI batteries), and if the sun goes away the voltage can drop down to 54v, which to me indicates you still have a ways to go. When you are over 55.4v it means you've held the voltage > 55v for a while now, and so are much closer to say 95% SOC. IMO
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by JRHill »

sodamo wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:30 pm Well, Jim
The good news is you have something interesting to keep your mind active. Me, I’m my own worst enemy. Wife often tells my I make work for myself. 😁

So sounds like the FM aux may be available for your alarm.
This not make work stuff. It is an unexpected "benefit." viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15818

Dang, I have no desire to buy a newer inverter. This sucks. I'm pulling the inverter shut down leads from the FNDC in a few minutes. Take odds that the problem goes away?
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by JRHill »

I have been curious to see what happens if I reset the Mate3 at 55vdc instead of 56,4. I don't need to go to 56,4 unless I need a recalibration to 100% soc and why do I need that?

Tonight's charge: 55.1vdc at 2.8kW then 55.2, kW are tapering off from 2.7 kW, 55.3 at 2.4kW, 55.4 at 2.4kW, 55.5 at 2.4kW, 55.6 at 2.4kW, 55.7 at 2.4kW and it fell back to float, 54.3vdc, 0.6kW. 100%SOC. Absorb is 55vdc, Hmmm.

Why cant I call 55vdc a full charge? By voltage, it IS a full charge anyway.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by sodamo »

I think you likely can, Jim. Seems guidance from Simpliphi has been in the 54-56 range (I lose track) maybe Raysun has better input from the Webinair.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by gtarolli »

My 2 cents - if you are at 55v with very little charge current, then you are full. Else with a large charge current, you can reach 55v at well below 90% SOC. E.g. I've seen 54v with clouds then bright sun and 55v and then clouds and 54v. So just because you hit 55v I would not consider that 100% SOC. Voltage can vary by .5v with a few kw and 1.0v with many kw, and in either direction.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

JRHill wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:31 pm I have been curious to see what happens if I reset the Mate3 at 55vdc instead of 56,4. I don't need to go to 56,4 unless I need a recalibration to 100% soc and why do I need that?

Tonight's charge: 55.1vdc at 2.8kW then 55.2, kW are tapering off from 2.7 kW, 55.3 at 2.4kW, 55.4 at 2.4kW, 55.5 at 2.4kW, 55.6 at 2.4kW, 55.7 at 2.4kW and it fell back to float, 54.3vdc, 0.6kW. 100%SOC. Absorb is 55vdc, Hmmm.

Why cant I call 55vdc a full charge? By voltage, it IS a full charge anyway.
Empirically, a 55V charge target makes sense. Measured at rest, that's > 97% SoC. (Therein lies Twist in the Tale #1 - we are not measuring the voltage at rest.)

The "less-than-fully-full" target voltages leave a wide latitude for acceptance of charge current. I've seen the battery happily accepting nearly 100A at that voltage. I've also seen a very long and lazy bulk charge reach 55V at 10A. If the FNDC is to be synced at this voltage, then what Charged Return Amps should be used for Charged Parameters Met?

I'm perfectly happy allowing the battery to reach whatever SoC the charging gods allow, as long as there's enough juice to get through to the next charge cycle.

If setting a lower terminal voltage, I'd suggest running an experiment. Finish the charge cycle at 55V on generator only (no solar charge, no Float) and allow the battery to idle for an hour. Note the no-load voltage. It should be a good indicator of SoC.

Whether or not to "game" the FNDC by adjusting battery capacity to the lower SoC is another question, and a bit if a complex one at that. I notice the FNDC frequently resets to 100% when it thinks enough charge has been replaced, or when it thinks a full charge can't be reached. This has happened as low as 85% SoC. I allow the charging to proceed to Charged Parameters Met so 100% is telling the truth. If 55V termination is sufficient, and the capacity can be guaged accurately, there would be a benefit to using the net capacity as the set Battery Capacity.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

gtarolli wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:55 am My 2 cents - if you are at 55v with very little charge current, then you are full. Else with a large charge current, you can reach 55v at well below 90% SOC. E.g. I've seen 54v with clouds then bright sun and 55v and then clouds and 54v. So just because you hit 55v I would not consider that 100% SOC. Voltage can vary by .5v with a few kw and 1.0v with many kw, and in either direction.
I toss 2 cents into the pot to second this observation.

Its now worth 4 cents. 😉
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

I watched my charging for a while today. The battery loitered in the low 54V range from 90% SoC. At 95% SoC, with charging at 0.15C the net AH ticked up to 0. A moment later, a large
load kicked in, the voltage dropped from 54.7 to 54.2, and the SoC jumped from 95% to 100% SoC. Charging power rose and fell, and voltage wandered from 54.3 to 54.1.

Later, while I wasn't watching, battery voltage must have gotten a shot in the arm and charging terminated at 56.4V. I assume it must have passed rapidly from the 45s through the 55s to get to 56.4. (I have to get data logging set up on the Victron.)

In this charging example, I'm confident the FNDC synced at "true" 100% SoC as the physical charge terminal limits were reached. I suspect for all practical purposes 55V would have represented the same 100% SoC in this case as well.

Had the battery charge between 95% and "true" 100% SoC been insufficient, the FNDC would have indicated 100% but would have been off by some amount. How much? No way to know at this point.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by sodamo »

You touch on an interesting point. we live in a load plagued world. I cannot envision a situation that would cause me to monitor totally disconnected from load.

As for tracking your voltage, that is available via OpticsRE report, but only at 15 min and 1 hour intervals. I’m assuming you would like something finer.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

sodamo wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:44 pm You touch on an interesting point. we live in a load plagued world. I cannot envision a situation that would cause me to monitor totally disconnected from load.

As for tracking your voltage, that is available via OpticsRE report, but only at 15 min and 1 hour intervals. I’m assuming you would like something finer.
Loads make it a challenge to track state of charge via voltage.

To catch the fast-changing full charge voltage requires a nearly continuous data stream. When I've monitored it in real time, the evolution is typically 10 minutes or less.

It turns out the stars aligned and the termination voltage event was captured:

M 12/27/2020 13:45 54.1
M 12/27/2020 14:00 56.4
M 12/27/2020 14:15 53.1

The reported Absorb Time was 1 minute, as I have the charge termination parameters set to minimize the time at 56.4V.

The prior full charge day was more of a "smoking gun" data capture:

12/24/2020 16:15 54.7
12/24/2020 16:30 55.1
12/24/2020 16:45 53.5
12/24/2020 17:00 53.1
12/24/2020 17:15 53.1

The 16:30 record implies the battery voltage was on its way to (or from) 56.4V. The stronger evidence of full charge, however, is the 17:00 and 17:15 records, which show the Float voltage configured for the system.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by sbrownian »

Try setting up logging to the SD card. That might get you the granularity you're looking for.
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by gtarolli »

Yes, the SD card should get you more fine-grain measurements.

So... although we live in a load-plagued world :-) we should be able to construct a chart of voltage drops. I suspect the drop may be dependent on SOC, but say at 90% SOC one varies the load (using microwaves, toasters, hair dryers etc) from C/25 to C/5 by small increments and makes a table/chart of the voltage. You should be able to extrapolate the almost-at-rest voltage from this chart, or wait until you have only a 200w load and consider that "at rest". I mentally do this at low precision. I know a 3-4kw load will drop the voltage by about .5v and vica-versa.

You can also do this experiment at 30-40% SOC and also in the other direction, but its harder to control the PV charging. You have to wait for clouds :-) Or start throwing breakers on different FM controllers.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

"Yes, the SD card should get you more fine-grain measurements."

I've played with the log files in the past, but with the hassle of needing to remove the SD card (interrupting logging) and installing it in a computer to download and read the data.

I've also used Wattplot, which read the live stream at 1 second resolution. However, on my system for some reason, Wattplot couldn't keep track of time increments so plotting was useless. Andrew never could figure the source of the problem, so I gave up on the app for log analysis.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by gtarolli »

I use Wattplot also, and found it useful for loading the log files (15 sec intervals). I proved that I had a leaky underground water pipe using this feature (by looking when the water pump turned on). I had issues with the plots also, but found that if I did something like change the plotting time incr. it would display OK. I usually remove the SD card once in a blue moon, dump all the files, and insert it again right away, so I only lose a few minutes of data.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

Today was a textbook example of 55V termination being an acceptable charging target.
20201228_134204.jpg
The FNDC reported 98% SoC @ 54.7V when the accumulated amperage reached 0. The SoC then reset to 100%.

The battery continued to charge, reaching 55V a few minutes later after having added roughly 3AH to the accumulation.

Charging proceeded to 56.4V and terminated having added a total of 8AH to the accumulation from where the initial 100% SoC was displayed.

The running difference between AH accumulation and computed Net Battery AH = 6AH. The actual = 8AH.

The difference between 55V and 57.6 = 5AH. 1%+ @ 450AH capacity. Close enough to call 99% SoC, IMO.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by gtarolli »

I agree. However, if you had 150 amps (net) going into your batteries, I bet 55v would have been reached at around 90% SOC (or below).
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

gtarolli wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:22 am I agree. However, if you had 150 amps (net) going into your batteries, I bet 55v would have been reached at around 90% SOC (or below).
Thats entirely possible, in fact highly likely.

Therein lies the rub. If a "less than full" target voltage is to be used, how should the Charged Return Amps be chosen in order to assure the battery is charged to a known state?

I'm choosing a "known full charge" state. There's little chance for ambiguity.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

Screenshot_20201229-093915_Chrome.jpg
Here's an example of @gtaroli's observation.

53.5V while charging. SoC 55%.

Had the battery been charged fully, 53.5V would have been 98-99% SoC with modest discharge.

Creating a comprehensive Voltage/SoC chart is going to be an arduous exercise.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by JRHill »

Last evening the Mate3 was Red at 6pm. The DW was growling at me. I said "Don't worry about it, all is OK." It was at 52.1vdc and she gave me the 'We'll wait and see look.' We had all the normal evening loads on which are the heaviest of our day - a trickle to most. If a really good movie we'll turn on the surround sound and that is a power hog. I watched and watched and it wouldn't drop below 50.0 Sometimes we do microwave popcorn and that would've done it, maybe for a moment. At 7:30pm I finally fired the generator 'cause it takes about 2.5 hours for a full bulk. At 10:10pm it was done and fell back.

Of course all batteries work great when they are new. But I'm continuously impressed with the repeatability. These critters do the same thing day after day in this low light season.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by sodamo »

Feelin good, Jim ? 🤙🤙

We started the new year at a PV deficit. Only 18.6 generated vs 23 used. V went down to low of 52 before sun started recharging. Already replaced what was used so tonight will be fine too. 😁
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

Screenshot_20210103-072704_Chrome.jpg
I have to say the charge and discharge characteristics somehow feel more concise. I'm sure its my imagination and simply a new battery.

My favorite part though? Partial state of charge, without a doubt. Not only is it easier to maintain, its actually healthier for the battery.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by JRHill »

sodamo wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:58 pm Feelin good, Jim ? 🤙🤙

We started the new year at a PV deficit. Only 18.6 generated vs 23 used. V went down to low of 52 before sun started recharging. Already replaced what was used so tonight will be fine too. 😁
Try as I might without forcing it I just can't get the batteries below 52.0vdc on a normal day of use. Yeah, I'm happy. The DW is getting used to the Red LED on. She doesn't beat me up any more.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by JRHill »

Success! DW was finishing supper and she told me to turn the generator on as she needed to nuke some stuff. Red light time, 52.1 and I told here to go for it. The system dipped to 51.6 and 51.5. Then 15 minutes later it was back to 52.1. So I did get them below 52 for the record.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by sodamo »

Hope you got an atta boy.
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