LI battery tuning

JRHill
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by JRHill »

sodamo wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:29 pm Hope you got an atta boy.
Better than words, I got a good supper.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:52 pm
sodamo wrote: Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:44 pm You touch on an interesting point. we live in a load plagued world. I cannot envision a situation that would cause me to monitor totally disconnected from load.

As for tracking your voltage, that is available via OpticsRE report, but only at 15 min and 1 hour intervals. I’m assuming you would like something finer.
Loads make it a challenge to track state of charge via voltage.

To catch the fast-changing full charge voltage requires a nearly continuous data stream. When I've monitored it in real time, the evolution is typically 10 minutes or less.

It turns out the stars aligned and the termination voltage event was captured:

M 12/27/2020 13:45 54.1
M 12/27/2020 14:00 56.4
M 12/27/2020 14:15 53.1

The reported Absorb Time was 1 minute, as I have the charge termination parameters set to minimize the time at 56.4V.

The prior full charge day was more of a "smoking gun" data capture:

12/24/2020 16:15 54.7
12/24/2020 16:30 55.1
12/24/2020 16:45 53.5
12/24/2020 17:00 53.1
12/24/2020 17:15 53.1

The 16:30 record implies the battery voltage was on its way to (or from) 56.4V. The stronger evidence of full charge, however, is the 17:00 and 17:15 records, which show the Float voltage configured for the system.
And for how long is the float set? I believe you said the absorb is .1?
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

Charging to "Absorb" = 56.4V with the minimum "Absorb Time" = 0.1H. This is running a Bulk phase to the termination voltage (56.4) and then stopping charge.

I have the FNDC Charged Parameters set:
Charged Voltage = 55.6V
Charged Time = 1 Minute
Charged Return Amps = 25A
(5.5% of C20, 12.5A in your case.)

On the inverter charger, Float Time = 0
(No Float)

On the FM80, Float cannot be defeated, the charger will enter Float after "Absorb" until the sun goes down.

For the above reason, and because I don't want to hold the battery at 100% SoC, I set Float Voltage = 53.1V.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:19 pm Charging to "Absorb" = 56.4V with the minimum "Absorb Time" = 0.1H. This is running a Bulk phase to the termination voltage (56.4) and then stopping charge.

I have the FNDC Charged Parameters set:
Charged Voltage = 55.6V
Charged Time = 1 Minute
Charged Return Amps = 25A
(5.5% of C20, 12.5A in your case.)

On the inverter charger, Float Time = 0
(No Float)

On the FM80, Float cannot be defeated, the charger will enter Float after "Absorb" until the sun goes down.

For the above reason, and because I don't want to hold the battery at 100% SoC, I set Float Voltage = 53.1V.
I hadn't been thinking it through previously but caught it yesterday. Because I am using generator charging I had set some float time at 53.1 but really never got there in 12 or 18 minutes even with termination at 55.2. I hadn't considered the charging differences between the inverter and CC in that way. Its fixed now and soon to be readdressed in a few weeks with more sun to the CC.

The Phi's have a memory function and I wondered just how much data they could really provide. In a recent article related to law enforcement and resolution of difficult cases I learned that the ECM and entertainment systems in newer vehicles store a BUNCH of info for a LONG time. Windows, doors, speed, location, accelerometer, cell/text, passengers and on and on. So yeah, I doubt it would be hard for Phi to have all the data they need in a small space. For a long time. I should've known better than to wonder that question.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

My choice of Float voltage is predicated on my wanting to keep the battery off 100% SoC. The time it takes to reach the Float voltage varies with load. If my system is very lightly loaded, then it may take a good deal of time. Its no matter really, as when it eventually reaches Float, only about 1% of the charge is expended. By the time the charge controllers go to Sleep at the end of the day, the battery sits at 98% SoC.

I have set Float Time = 0 on the inverter charger, as it isn't needed. If the generator is running, there's no draw on the battery so Float is superfluous. If I need generator charging, I don't run it to full charge in any event, rather for my system, I stop the generator at 80% SoC.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

"The Phi's have a memory function and I wondered just how much data they could really provide. In a recent article related to law enforcement and resolution of difficult cases I learned that the ECM and entertainment systems in newer vehicles store a BUNCH of info for a LONG time. Windows, doors, speed, location, accelerometer, cell/text, passengers and on and on. So yeah, I doubt it would be hard for Phi to have all the data they need in a small space. For a long time. I should've known better than to wonder that question."

Did I miss the memo? Is this Big Brother, Hackers, and Yo Mama is Watching Day?

😂😂😂😂
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:29 am "The Phi's have a memory function and I wondered just how much data they could really provide. In a recent article related to law enforcement and resolution of difficult cases I learned that the ECM and entertainment systems in newer vehicles store a BUNCH of info for a LONG time. Windows, doors, speed, location, accelerometer, cell/text, passengers and on and on. So yeah, I doubt it would be hard for Phi to have all the data they need in a small space. For a long time. I should've known better than to wonder that question."

Did I miss the memo? Is this Big Brother, Hackers, and Yo Mama is Watching Day?

😂😂😂😂
No conspiracy other than getting honked on battery warranties so many times in the past.
raysun
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

JRHill wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:39 am
raysun wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:29 am "The Phi's have a memory function and I wondered just how much data they could really provide. In a recent article related to law enforcement and resolution of difficult cases I learned that the ECM and entertainment systems in newer vehicles store a BUNCH of info for a LONG time. Windows, doors, speed, location, accelerometer, cell/text, passengers and on and on. So yeah, I doubt it would be hard for Phi to have all the data they need in a small space. For a long time. I should've known better than to wonder that question."

Did I miss the memo? Is this Big Brother, Hackers, and Yo Mama is Watching Day?

😂😂😂😂
No conspiracy other than getting honked on battery warranties so many times in the past.
Hey! These Phi batteries come with an iron-clad 50/50 warranty.

If they break in half, you get to keep both parts.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:41 am
JRHill wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:39 am
raysun wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:29 am "The Phi's have a memory function and I wondered just how much data they could really provide. In a recent article related to law enforcement and resolution of difficult cases I learned that the ECM and entertainment systems in newer vehicles store a BUNCH of info for a LONG time. Windows, doors, speed, location, accelerometer, cell/text, passengers and on and on. So yeah, I doubt it would be hard for Phi to have all the data they need in a small space. For a long time. I should've known better than to wonder that question."

Did I miss the memo? Is this Big Brother, Hackers, and Yo Mama is Watching Day?

😂😂😂😂
No conspiracy other than getting honked on battery warranties so many times in the past.
Hey! These Phi batteries come with an iron-clad 50/50 warranty.

If they break in half, you get to keep both parts.
Thanks Pal. You can be such an inspiration.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

JRHill wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:48 am
raysun wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:41 am
JRHill wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:39 am

No conspiracy other than getting honked on battery warranties so many times in the past.

Hey! These Phi batteries come with an iron-clad 50/50 warranty.

If they break in half, you get to keep both parts.
Thanks Pal. You can be such an inspiration.
My favorite Christmas gift:
20210106_100225.jpg
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by JRHill »

Bacon for Breakfast.jpg
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by sodamo »

Wife says 1 of you is cute, Jim. Didn’t ask which one.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by sbrownian »

JRHill wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:36 pm Bacon for Breakfast.jpg
Trimmed some apricot trees earlier. Pork roast smoked with 'cot wood is really tasty..
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by JRHill »

sbrownian wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:39 pm
JRHill wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:36 pm Bacon for Breakfast.jpg
Trimmed some apricot trees earlier. Pork roast smoked with 'cot wood is really tasty..
Mmmm apricot.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by JRHill »

I'm still toying with the Days Since Parameters Met. I'm charging from the inverter so I have .4v steps. I am charging to 55.2vdc and it is working well and RARELY do the batteries get below 52.0. But I still can't hit the Days Since threshold for the SOC reset.

The system settings have the batteries at 220 AH since the beginning set up. But I'm not charging them all the way up. If I derate the amp hours a bit for the lower charge voltage does this make sense? I don't use charge termination.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

JRHill wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:25 pm I'm still toying with the Days Since Parameters Met. I'm charging from the inverter so I have .4v steps. I am charging to 55.2vdc and it is working well and RARELY do the batteries get below 52.0. But I still can't hit the Days Since threshold for the SOC reset.

The system settings have the batteries at 220 AH since the beginning set up. But I'm not charging them all the way up. If I derate the amp hours a bit for the lower charge voltage does this make sense? I don't use charge termination.

Hmmm.... Personally, I'm not a fan of "juking the stats" on the FNDC. IME, you lie to the FNDC, it will lie to you.

My system is set up strictly to the specs. When available, the battery is charged to the termination voltage. When not available, the battery gets to where it gets. In the past 10 days, I've seen 100% SoC once.

I'm completely happy to go days and days at PSoC. My current cycle is on day three. The FNDC and the Victron BMV700 are tracking exactly.

If I need generator charging, I manually terminate it at 80% (of 450AH).

Past that, I don't play any sort of charging games.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by sodamo »

Ray
Nolonger playing with return amps or did I misunderstand. Care to share your current settings?
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:47 pmHmmm.... Personally, I'm not a fan of "juking the stats" on the FNDC.
Well I'm already "juking" around with calling 55.2 a full charge. All I'm trying to do is get the system to count down from there. You understand. Anyway, I set the battery AH back to 190 (probably too far) as an experiment. I'll watch the stats for a few days and see what happens and report back. If no benefit I'll go back to the previous setting or factor from there.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

sodamo wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:51 pm Ray
Nolonger playing with return amps or did I misunderstand. Care to share your current settings?
Absorb Voltage 56.4 (cc)
56.0 (inverter)
Absorb Time 0.1H

CHARGED PARAMETERS
Charged Voltage 55.6
Charged Return Amps 24 (5.3% of C20)
Charged Time 1 Minute
Charge Factor 98%

The CRA is set so that at the end of Charged Time the actual amps are 9A (2% of C20). I just didn't like the charge current crashing to 0 at the end of 1 minute.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by sodamo »

Mine a bit different
Absorb Voltage 56.4 Absorb Time 0.1H CC
54.0 Absorb Time 0.5H (inverter) I don’t try for 100%

CHARGED PARAMETERS
Battery AMPS - 900
Charged Voltage 54
Charged Return Amps 24
Charged Time 1 Minute
Charge Factor 98%

I’ve been hitting 100% / CPM most days. Seems to hit 100% then quickly fall off.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

sodamo wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:27 pm Mine a bit different
Absorb Voltage 56.4 Absorb Time 0.1H CC
54.0 Absorb Time 0.5H (inverter) I don’t try for 100%

CHARGED PARAMETERS
Battery AMPS - 900
Charged Voltage 54
Charged Return Amps 24
Charged Time 1 Minute
Charge Factor 98%

I’ve been hitting 100% / CPM most days. Seems to hit 100% then quickly fall off.
The inverter charging codifies how mine actually behaves. I never bother with it reaching 100% SoC, and if I was using AGS, I'd likely end up using your parms.

I want my SoC to fall off 100% ASAP, and set Float low (53.1V) so it does just that. Typically, if charging hits 100%, it stays there for 1 minute.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by JRHill »

Setting the AH back did nothing. Days Since didn't reset. I put the settings back.

Inverter Absorb is set for 55.2 for .2 but the Mate3 reports the max voltage was 54.6 during this charge cycle. Obviously I didn't satisfy the battery setup for the FNDC of 55.0 for one minute. This is confusing. If the absorb ended at 55.2/.2, the FNDC didn't see it. I've seen that there is a battery calibration for the FNDC. Hmmm.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by raysun »

JRHill wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:14 pm Setting the AH back did nothing. Days Since didn't reset. I put the settings back.

Inverter Absorb is set for 55.2 for .2 but the Mate3 reports the max voltage was 54.6 during this charge cycle. Obviously I didn't satisfy the battery setup for the FNDC of 55.0 for one minute. This is confusing. If the absorb ended at 55.2/.2, the FNDC didn't see it. I've seen that there is a battery calibration for the FNDC. Hmmm.
With the FNDC in place, its voltage is what the Mate reports on its status screen. What's it read relative to actual battery voltage. Mine was off 0.3V before calibration.
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:43 pm
JRHill wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:14 pm Setting the AH back did nothing. Days Since didn't reset. I put the settings back.

Inverter Absorb is set for 55.2 for .2 but the Mate3 reports the max voltage was 54.6 during this charge cycle. Obviously I didn't satisfy the battery setup for the FNDC of 55.0 for one minute. This is confusing. If the absorb ended at 55.2/.2, the FNDC didn't see it. I've seen that there is a battery calibration for the FNDC. Hmmm.
With the FNDC in place, its voltage is what the Mate reports on its status screen. What's it read relative to actual battery voltage. Mine was off 0.3V before calibration.
The Mate3 Battery Status screen showed 52.7 and the Fluke 77 showed 52.4. By the time I got back to the Mate it showed 52.6 so there is a .2 to .3 difference with the batteries on the low side. What the true actual is - who knows? I did move around the various +/- connections that had a very small 5a load and they were identical. So was the FNDC +/-.

On tonight's charge run I'll cuddle up with the Mate3 and closely watch the Battery Status screen. For the life of me I can't imagine why the charge cycle which is set to end at 55.2 and .2 absorb would tell me the max battery voltage was 54.6 during the run. This is very probably why the Days Since is not being reset. And this isn't a new problem as it happened with the Trojans but I never gave it much attention as I relied on SGs. At that time I toyed with this and found I could get to a Days Since reset if I reinitiated a Bulk charge at least 1 or 2x. But that isn't real life. So there is a discrepancy there.

Your comment is worthy: If you lie to it it will lie you. But if you lie consistently in a path can not one expect consistent lies back along that same path? It seems to work when I am asked what I got done today.... I'm not lying but I may not be telling the whole story (wink).
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Re: LI battery tuning

Post by gtarolli »

I can't remember if you disabled temp. compensation - that will lower the target voltage but typically not by as much as your are seeing.
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