SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:09 pm 20220125_150257.jpg

Jim, I don't know if this is good news or bad news. After charging today, I turned off the FM80s and let a little charge bleed off the battery. Then I started the generator and initiated another charge cycle using the FXRs. It was a short cycle that proceeded to Absorb in about 10 minutes. After a couple of Absorb Charging / Not Charging events, the charge current dropped below CRA, and charging terminated. A moment later a CPM record appeared in the event log.

Absorb Voltage = 56.0
You were mostly full already. I think this makes a difference but I don't know how to explain why. Parameters are parameters. But there sure seems to be a difference.

The genset comes on at 6pm, Pacific time. I'm at 52.3 now and could fire it at any time. It's a 2.5 hour run to full.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

You were mostly full already. I think this makes a difference but I don't know how to explain why. Parameters are parameters. But there sure seems to be a difference.
True, the battery was at 98% SoC. However, it still runs "full gas" in Bulk until reaching the Absorb stage.

I do have a larger charging capacity, but am charging a larger battery. I imagine net charge per block is about equal.

I'm charging to 56V, so that may prove to be a difference.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:40 pmI'm charging to 56V, so that may prove to be a difference.
And that's a curiosity too. My Absorb is set to 55.6 and it continuously overshoots. That's why it is at 55.6. If I program to 56.0 it approaches the top end of the PHIs at 56.3 or more. No Solar. Why does the VFXR overshoot?

I looked to a firmware refresh for the FXR. It all seemed to be updates related to regional grid connections for other parts of the world. Well, that's not what I want. I have the .GIP files ready to go. But I don't need new problems for an off grid implementation. If I was in Tahiti, maybe. Maybe I should be in Tahiti.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by provo »

JRHill wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:05 pm
And that's a curiosity too. My Absorb is set to 55.6 and it continuously overshoots. That's why it is at 55.6. If I program to 56.0 it approaches the top end of the PHIs at 56.3 or more. No Solar. Why does the VFXR overshoot?
Mine does also. I have my VFXR set to 28.0V and the FM at 28.2V. When absorbing with the inverter alone I often get to 28.3V at the battery terminals, which is the highest the FM ever gets. The FM overshoot is minor, but the VFXR seems pretty crude. It would be like you guys absorbing at 56.6V ...

I've decided not to worry about 28.3V (with some help from raysun...), OR about 8m to CPM.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

And that's a curiosity too. My Absorb is set to 55.6 and it continuously overshoots. That's why it is at 55.6. If I program to 56.0 it approaches the top end of the PHIs at 56.3 or more. No Solar. Why does the VFXR overshoot?
My FX would do the same thing. I don't think the voltage regulation on the rectifier circuits is all that fine-grained. Be that as it may, the "overshoot" is probably a benefit in this case. Bear in mind the FM Absorb voltage of 56.4V. The inverter approaching that value is no problem.

As a matter of fact, my FMs overshoot as well. I see 56.6, and occasionally 56.7 from them. It does not concern me at all. In fact, early on I had a discussion with a Phi engineer to stated anything below 60V was fine. We're not even coming close to that.

Notice they set HBCO at 60V. It pretty much infers anything below that is within warranty.

I'd strongly suggest setting Absorb at 56.0V for the FXR.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

It would be like you guys absorbing at 56.6V
It happens on my system periodically. I don't sweat it in the least.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:20 pmAs a matter of fact, my FMs overshoot as well. I see 56.6, and occasionally 56.7 from them. It does not concern me at all.
I'd strongly suggest setting Absorb at 56.0V for the FXR.
0.1 over from the FMs is nothing to be concerned about.

But when you set the VFXR to 55.6 instead of 56.0 and it still overshoots 56, up to 56.2 or 56.3 well then that is a problem. Why doesn't it behave?

Then I did the voltage calibration. Now I don't get to Absorb before the generator shuts down - I just drop to Float.

There is a new thread for this stuff. I want to kick ass.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

But when you set the VFXR to 55.6 instead of 56.0 and it still overshoots 56, up to 56.2 or 56.3 well then that is a problem. Why doesn't it behave?
Just yesterday I was told: "It does behave, just not the way you want."

I have some speculations but I'm not going to air them here until I have some corroboration.

I will say this: If you want to try non-standard settings, expect non-standard results. By that I don't refer to charger voltage regulation (yet), rather the intent of this thread, reaching CPM.

Set the Inverter Absorb voltage to 56.0V. Ignore the readings during charging. (You have HBCO set low enough anyway, but if this rubs you the wrong way, lower it to 58.0V).

Right now, 10 watts of charge from your FM80 during absorb will knock your inverter charger out of the ring. At 56V it has a chance to stay in the game longer. If its own voltage regulation (or lack thereof) causes it to take priority over the FM80 then it will most likely reach CPM.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:09 pm Why doesn't it behave?
I have seven children. I also tried to program them with similar results. Some times it works. But some times not - there is no factory reset. So I have learned patience.

All I can say is I hope the inverter gets smarter as it gets older.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

An update on the FXR issue of CPM: my problem has been getting to Absorb voltage with the generator and if I do for long enough to set the CPM flag. Its just not happening. Last night (after sundown so no FM) I had increased the Absorb setting to 56.0 / .1 hour and had the FNDC disconnected. I got to ~55.6 and the generator charge dropped as always (recently). I Rebulked and it went to 56.0 and dropped the generator with <1 minute Absorb. Third try and I got somewhere around 3 minutes of Absorb, certainly not 6 minutes. Of course no CPM as the FNDC was disconnected but theoretically it should've been achieved. One thing is for sure, the FNDC is NOT a contributing factor in reaching and holding the Absorb set point.

I had thought about just leaving the FNDC disconnected - I'm ordering a Victron. I had thought that the only thing I miss is the shunts anyway. But this AM I reviewed the Mate3s manual. Without the FNDC the Battery Status LEDs revert back to lead battery technology. So the Green 'all is good' LED will stay lit from 50vdc or higher. Honk/snort/growl from me with SimpliPhi's. That will not work. Yeah, LVCO, if that works, should protect the PHIs. Additionally I could turn on the 2 Minute AGS start above LVCO. But having that Green status light is a quick-at-a-glance notification that attention will be needed, even if its not that accurate on SOC, would be missed.

Tonight's last ditch test is to set FXR to 56.4 / .1 hour. It's not exactly like doing the same thing and expecting different results as I've tried a bunch of singular changes each time and watching closely. Frankly, I hope something is different but not holding my breath.

My thanks to Raysun is in order!

One last note from the Mate3s Overview doc:
M3s.png
Take a look at the Notes. "Gaps in the table (higher-voltage units) are due to the resolution of the inverter’s DC meter." The word "resolution" is neither precision nor accuracy. So even if you calibrate the inverter's voltage is that number consistent? If it's NOT consistent, by calibrating the inverter you just slide the scale up or down a bit. And if you have multiple inverters and whether or not you have a FNDC this adds some curiosity.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

BTW, to me:
- Precision = grouping
- Accuracy = the 'bullseye'
- Trueness = both
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

If 56.4V does not achieve 6 minutes of absorb, then this is not a battery physics issue, and I'd guess the FXR metering is the culprit.

To that end, I'd ignore synchronicity with the FM and FNDC voltmeters, and play with the battery calibration. (I have my own definition for CF, but this is a family forum.) In any event, I'd slide it down, or up, a notch until the charger does what its supposed to.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by jsmith »

Do either of you, or anyone else, know of any problem charging at 56.0V/0.2 hrs absorb? I can't get CPM even on an FM at 0.1 hrs absorb. Calibration looks good (not perfect.) Actual absorb time for me runs 6-9 min. My equipment differs so may not be relevant to your problems but I wondered whether you had considered the longer time. (I'll start a new thread when/if I learn more about my system.)

Edited 1/30/22 to correct decimal placement for time settings measured in hours.
Last edited by jsmith on Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by jsmith »

I do realize that you aren't even reaching 6 min in absorb but some of these setting changes produce unexpected results. I have reached CPM in 5 min with time set to 0.2 hrs but, of course, that observation doesn't prove it wouldn't have happened if set to 0.1 hrs.

Edited to correct decimal placement for time settings stated in hours.
Last edited by jsmith on Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

jsmith wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:18 pm I do realize that you aren't even reaching 6 min in absorb but some of these setting changes produce unexpected results. I have reached CPM in 5 min with time set to 0.02 but, of course, that observation doesn't prove it wouldn't have happened if set to 0.01.
When you set the FNDC battery parameters the Absorb time is in tenths of an hour. So 0.1 is the minimum and that is 6 minutes. You can not set it for 1 minute. There is no 0.01 or 0.02. You want to dial in the charged voltage in the FNDC along with the Return Amps. For Return Amps I believe it is 2% of the bank's total amp hours. As for Charged voltage don't be afraid to drop it down to say, 55.6, because for all practical purposes the PHIs are already full. If you really want to play and if you achieve CPM, you can bring the charged voltage up little by until you miss CPM but it is really not worth it in my opinion. To me it is setting a standard for CPM that can be repeated day after day with sufficient charge input.

There is at least one person who goes to 56.4 and 0.2 hour. I have tried it but prefer 0.1 which is what SimpliPHI specifies in their doc. Mr Raysun has spent brain time researching this issue and that is good enough for me.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:07 pm If 56.4V does not achieve 6 minutes of absorb, then this is not a battery physics issue, and I'd guess the FXR metering is the culprit.

To that end, I'd ignore synchronicity with the FM and FNDC voltmeters, and play with the battery calibration. (I have my own definition for CF, but this is a family forum.) In any event, I'd slide it down, or up, a notch until the charger does what its supposed to.
With Absorb set to 56.4 the VFX charged all the way there but dropped in very short order. We'll see if it does it twice in a row. But still not getting any Absorb time as the generator charge is dropped. And when I say dropped, I mean like totally, totally man. There is no tapering down of AC amps.

One last tidbit for you EU7000is lovers: don't forget to show the generator a little additional love by adding some fuel injector cleaner at intervals. Right now my 'lil injector is adding fuel and its diluting the oil and overfilling the crank case.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPgoWxT1PMc
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

One of my favorite characters!

Though I can't imagine how it would be, I wonder if the Honda is the source of the problem?

Generator Mode makes no difference?

How about the old Absorb Voltage = 54.6, Absorb Time = 1.5H?
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:15 am One of my favorite characters!

Though I can't imagine how it would be, I wonder if the Honda is the source of the problem?

Generator Mode makes no difference?

How about the old Absorb Voltage = 54.6, Absorb Time = 1.5H?
Nah, the output of the generator works great except for those occasional high voltage Warnings after the run is done and the genset is idling. They can get to a little over 130 but not dangerous IMO.

Generator mode is no different than Support with regard to CPM. I avoid generator mode because the current accepted is derated so I lose +10% of charging amps.

1.5 hour Absorb? Now you're being funny.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by provo »

JRHill wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:01 pm
With Absorb set to 56.4 the VFX charged all the way there but dropped in very short order. We'll see if it does it twice in a row. But still not getting any Absorb time as the generator charge is dropped.
What is the FM80 absorb voltage setting? Even if the panels aren't producing much or anything, is it possible that the VFX is dropping out to let the FM take over? Have you ever tried absorbing with the FM taken out of the picture completely (From PV and To Batt breakers both off)?
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

1.5 hour Absorb? Now you're being funny.
Actually, I'm being serious. In my case, the Bulk stage hovers right about there naturally, for about that length of time. It was/is Phi's "long Absorb" setting. On generator, it may not make much difference in actual runtime, and its in a voltage range the system seems to accept without hiccup. It might be worth trying to see if the CRA target can be reached. (Of course, FM charging would need to be disabled.)
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

provo wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:38 am
JRHill wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:01 pm
With Absorb set to 56.4 the VFX charged all the way there but dropped in very short order. We'll see if it does it twice in a row. But still not getting any Absorb time as the generator charge is dropped.
What is the FM80 absorb voltage setting? Even if the panels aren't producing much or anything, is it possible that the VFX is dropping out to let the FM take over? Have you ever tried absorbing with the FM taken out of the picture completely (From PV and To Batt breakers both off)?
The FM80 has been set to 56.4 / .1 all along. My schedule is to run the genset for recharging at 6pm so its dark out and the FM80 is sleeping. I never put a separate breaker in for just the FM - just the 100a main that shuts down the battery connection.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

JRHill wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:53 am
provo wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:38 am
JRHill wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:01 pm
With Absorb set to 56.4 the VFX charged all the way there but dropped in very short order. We'll see if it does it twice in a row. But still not getting any Absorb time as the generator charge is dropped.
What is the FM80 absorb voltage setting? Even if the panels aren't producing much or anything, is it possible that the VFX is dropping out to let the FM take over? Have you ever tried absorbing with the FM taken out of the picture completely (From PV and To Batt breakers both off)?
The FM80 has been set to 56.4 / .1 all along. My schedule is to run the genset for recharging at 6pm so its dark out and the FM80 is sleeping. I never put a separate breaker in for just the FM - just the 100a main that shuts down the battery connection.
I suppose its worth a try. My basket of untried experiments is getting close to empty. I'll set it for .5 hour first. With the generator schedule we have I'm in the main room in view of the Mate3 anyway and usually do a manual shut down when the charging run completes sometime after 8pm.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

If there's no PV current coming in at high enough voltage, the FM will be sleeping anyway, so is effectively disconnected.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by raysun »

I suppose its worth a try. My basket of untried experiments is getting close to empty. I'll set it for .5 hour first.
Just to see if it will hold the voltage for the set time?

When I played with that setting, it took exactly 1:23 to have current decline to 2%.
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Re: SimpliPhi Full Charge and CPM

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:15 am
I suppose its worth a try. My basket of untried experiments is getting close to empty. I'll set it for .5 hour first.
Just to see if it will hold the voltage for the set time?
Yup. This is going to end up as a call to tech support before long. I would like to be able to address anything that is suggested as already tried. And for the record I would love to avoid a warranty replacement. Swapping out that inverter in a crawl space 4' high is not something I can do by myself these days.
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