LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Discussion about pairing third-party batteries with OutBack equipment
KeithBriggs
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Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:56 pm
My RE system: 1. Captain Cook, HI: 16k Radian 4 FM80 48 300w panels, 8 100aH Chinese LFP rack batteries 2. Evergreen, CO: 8k Radian 2 FM100 24 360w panels, 7 3.x simpliphi (2 more still 2b shipped from HI). Both grid tied HBX mode connect 50.4 disconnect 50.8.

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by KeithBriggs »

The breaker is 125a. They said 100a is fine continuous but I didn't buy that. With 8 of them I'll never get close to taxing the current limits. 4 fm80 but on 3 different roof angles. Currently they are limited to 60a 60a 50a and 25a to stay under 200a or 33a for each PHI 3.4. On the inverter side, I limited to ~12,000 watts AC for the same reason. Looking forward to a more capacity esp on the load side. I only on a rare occasion would I top 200a on the DC side.

In the spec and testing sheet it says The open circuit voltage of the battery pack is to be is 51.2V~53V. I kept checking that. I saw some that were not. I also found on the spec sheet 16s 51.2 nominal.
stretch69
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Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:33 pm
My RE system: 6 - 36 volt 290 watt panels for a total of 1740 watts. 3 strings of 2 panels each.
4 - 48 volt 260 watt panels for a total of 1040 watts. 2 stings of 2 panels each.
2 VFX3648 inverters
2 FM60-150 VDC charge controller 1 MATE 3 1 4 port HUB 1 PS2AC/DC backplane
8 S-600 Rolls Surrette 6 volt cells. New on July 23:)
Location: Goderich Ontario Canada

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by stretch69 »

I have been playing with some new cells lately as well.
I am running a 48 volt 425 ah lithium pack at the moment. Made from 85 ah cells. Paralleled 5 cells to get the AH up.
The attached photos are of some 24-VDC units. The BMS is a DALY 8S 24 volt 250 AMP Smart BMS. Yes, I know the AH figure on the screen does not jive with the SOC. I did not have the BMS programmed for the correct AH capacity of the battery yet.

So far the 48-volt bank I have been playing with works awesome.
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KeithBriggs
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Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:56 pm
My RE system: 1. Captain Cook, HI: 16k Radian 4 FM80 48 300w panels, 8 100aH Chinese LFP rack batteries 2. Evergreen, CO: 8k Radian 2 FM100 24 360w panels, 7 3.x simpliphi (2 more still 2b shipped from HI). Both grid tied HBX mode connect 50.4 disconnect 50.8.

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by KeithBriggs »

That's cool stretch. I think to balance the cells, you need a water bottle on the left side too. My Simpliphi's run blind compared to that. My new chinese ones are better but not that cool.

RGD: two things caught my eye while searching for LFP float voltage recommendations and I was perusing https://forum.solar-electric.com/discus ... epo4-cells
search for "Xtrema Balancer" and Cellog8. They both made me think of you. Older posts so you could just google them or something similar.
stretch69
Forum Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:33 pm
My RE system: 6 - 36 volt 290 watt panels for a total of 1740 watts. 3 strings of 2 panels each.
4 - 48 volt 260 watt panels for a total of 1040 watts. 2 stings of 2 panels each.
2 VFX3648 inverters
2 FM60-150 VDC charge controller 1 MATE 3 1 4 port HUB 1 PS2AC/DC backplane
8 S-600 Rolls Surrette 6 volt cells. New on July 23:)
Location: Goderich Ontario Canada

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by stretch69 »

This display is optional. The BMS can run blind, it also comes with USB interface, and Bluetooth as well.

The APP goes on a smartphone and actually works great. The PC software can monitor 8 different BMS units at once.

I will post some pics of the APP and the software when I get some time.

I Will post some pics of the cells as well.
KeithBriggs
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Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:56 pm
My RE system: 1. Captain Cook, HI: 16k Radian 4 FM80 48 300w panels, 8 100aH Chinese LFP rack batteries 2. Evergreen, CO: 8k Radian 2 FM100 24 360w panels, 7 3.x simpliphi (2 more still 2b shipped from HI). Both grid tied HBX mode connect 50.4 disconnect 50.8.

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by KeithBriggs »

I think its a nice upgrade from blind. The bms knows everything. Might as well share it.
RGD
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My RE system: 3 Ea GS8048A Inverters, 87KW LiFePO battery, 15KW TenK Ground Mount Solar.

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by RGD »

How are you using the BMS with 5 parallel strings of batteries. Are you monitoring just one set. I have 6 parallel strings of 16 batteries and was trying to figure out how to use less than 6 BMS's to monitor the system. From the research that I've done, the DALY is supposed to be a really good unit. Good to know that the PC software can monitor 8 different BMS's.

New record for my very young system - Yesterday was a high load day. Generated 108 KWh yesterday mostly on battery, with very little sun. Not much sun today either. Generated 20KWh today. Very light load day. Batteries finally shut off at 51.6 V at around 7pm tonight.
KeithBriggs
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Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:56 pm
My RE system: 1. Captain Cook, HI: 16k Radian 4 FM80 48 300w panels, 8 100aH Chinese LFP rack batteries 2. Evergreen, CO: 8k Radian 2 FM100 24 360w panels, 7 3.x simpliphi (2 more still 2b shipped from HI). Both grid tied HBX mode connect 50.4 disconnect 50.8.

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by KeithBriggs »

Those are high loads. Big day here as well but we got sun. 55kwh in, 45kwh out. 6 simpliphi are at 91% because left the car charging too long. Charged though. My new batteries have 4 dip switches from 0 to 15 so you can have up to 16 in parallel and that's how you access each one individually. I doubt I will have an app for it unless I learn mandarin.

I ran all my battery cables to master inverter and ran a pair of 4/0 to the other inverter DC 2 DC. I suspect you ran pairs to each radian. I've never seen a voltage difference between the two inverters.
RGD
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My RE system: 3 Ea GS8048A Inverters, 87KW LiFePO battery, 15KW TenK Ground Mount Solar.

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by RGD »

You might want to ask which BMS the battery manufacturer is using. Many use the DALY and you can use their app. It seems DALY are sold under many other names. Also there is usually a bluetooth UART that can be plugged in and then you could get it on your phone. Even if the app is in Chinese, numbers are still numbers. The labels will be a little hard to read but the individual battery voltages would be decimal.
RGD
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My RE system: 3 Ea GS8048A Inverters, 87KW LiFePO battery, 15KW TenK Ground Mount Solar.

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by RGD »

I bet it was fun wrestling that 4/0. You are correct I ran 1AWG welding cable to each inverter from the bus bar. Cable is conservatively good for 200 amps and is super flexible. Jacket is tough as nails.
stretch69
Forum Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:33 pm
My RE system: 6 - 36 volt 290 watt panels for a total of 1740 watts. 3 strings of 2 panels each.
4 - 48 volt 260 watt panels for a total of 1040 watts. 2 stings of 2 panels each.
2 VFX3648 inverters
2 FM60-150 VDC charge controller 1 MATE 3 1 4 port HUB 1 PS2AC/DC backplane
8 S-600 Rolls Surrette 6 volt cells. New on July 23:)
Location: Goderich Ontario Canada

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by stretch69 »

Ok long post here and some photos as well.

I use a Daly BMS for each cabinet (24 volts DC 425 AH). The DALY units can not be connected to more cells. It either 16s, 14s, etc. They go from12 volts up to 70 volts I think. The app is very good and in English and very easy to use. The Only problem that I have found is that when charging the AMP's in reading on the APP is way out to lunch, all over the map, but when I put my very expensive and accurate FLUKE clamp meter its bang on 90 amps ( the charger I am using to test with put out that AMPS max). When discharging the reading for amps is bang on. I do not know why that is. I have not had time to play with the PC software but I will soon.

If you want to monitor 96 cells and only have one BMS or CPU I use the Elite Power Systems BMS. It uses sense boards on each cell or each paralleled cell. One central CPU. The CPU can be set up to monitor 300 cells max. When setting up the CPU you can tell how many cells you have and the number in parallel and it figures out the rest for you.
Now the CPU cost is $299.00. Sense boards are 20.10 each, 2.5-inch cable is $3.00 each, 8-inch cable 3.55 each, and current shunt is 21.00.
You need to supply your own connectors and contactors and LVD, HVD, HT, and LT relays.

The Elite can be monitored using Bluetooth and for setup must be connected to wireless and synced to their cloud monitoring system where they can make you the admin of your system to make changes.
You access it via a web page. The sense board in the photo is for 100 ah cells or 200 ah cells CALB I think or CATL not sure.
In the photos, I had to modify the card to fit the 85 ah Narada cells I am using. They will custom make sense boards for me but I was not willing to pay the 2000 dollar engineering fee.
They do not have stock on these boards at the moment and it's a 2 month lead time to get them. I need more by the way.

Take a look at the photos and when I get the time I will mess with the PC software.

So it comes down to how much cash you want to spend. I know you can get the Smart Daly BMS units in smaller amperage capacity and that makes them cheaper. So you could go down to say a 100 AMP 48 volt unit and have 6 of them.
Any questions or thoughts let me know.
Attachments
SenseB1.jpg
Elite.jpg
App.PNG
RGD
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My RE system: 3 Ea GS8048A Inverters, 87KW LiFePO battery, 15KW TenK Ground Mount Solar.

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by RGD »

Thanks for the information on the Elite BMS. Looks like too much sugar for a dime to me. I would have a wiring mess (more than I already have) trying to make it work on my system.

My main concerns on the DALY are:
1. The way you switch from battery pack to another pack in the software. Can they be named so they can be easily identified or is it by serial number.
2. The other concern is with 6 280AHr 16S battery packs in parallel, the 16S battery packs will all appear to have the exact same pack voltage. Not sure what the BMS uses that info for and how it effects the individual 3.2V cells balance charge. If the pack (16S) voltage does not match the sum of the individual (3.2V) batteries, what happens? I would think that it wouldn't have any effect and the BMS would just compare each individual 3.2v battery to each other. My concern is that it uses the 16S voltage for a reference. Not sure what the algorithm looks like.

Saying all this, I'm probably overcomplicating it and it will just balance out over time.
stretch69
Forum Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:33 pm
My RE system: 6 - 36 volt 290 watt panels for a total of 1740 watts. 3 strings of 2 panels each.
4 - 48 volt 260 watt panels for a total of 1040 watts. 2 stings of 2 panels each.
2 VFX3648 inverters
2 FM60-150 VDC charge controller 1 MATE 3 1 4 port HUB 1 PS2AC/DC backplane
8 S-600 Rolls Surrette 6 volt cells. New on July 23:)
Location: Goderich Ontario Canada

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by stretch69 »

I will be playing with the software next week. I have a 7 port USB hub and that will connect to each DALY BMS.
There are tabs for each BMS, but can I name them, not sure. I will have more info next week. I have to assembly some more packs first.


As for the way the DALY sees multiple packs in parallel, it sees the voltage of all the packs as one. It however sees what amps are going in each bank and out and that's how it determines the SOC of each pack. Each unit balances its own 16 cells.

Now when connecting 6 of the DALY BMS units up (most I have done so far is 4), you must make sure that each pack is matched in battery voltage or at least no more than .50 of a volt, if not there will be amps transferred from the fuller battery to the empty battery.
Like water tanks all connected via pipes at the bottom, they will all level out. If the voltages are close then there will be fewer amps going from one battery to another. Most I have seen is 25 amps, on the BMS APP. this drops off fast as the packs all level out.
Now if one pack has an issue the BMS will take it offline, you will have to reset the BMS to do this, but you must take the battery offline and charge separately till its voltage matches the rest of the units that are still online. If not then a massive amount of amps will flow from full to empty, possibly tripping the other BMS units offline if the current is high enough depending on how you programed your BMS AMPS charging cutoff setting. May blow your fuses that you should have between each bank as well (or DC circuit breaker).

Now there are systems out there that can do the monitoring and precharge the packs before bringing them back in with the other packs but they are expensive.

I will tell you that the SOC part of the app is pretty but how accurate is it? Not sure. All 6 of your packs will balance out and if you have a quality battery monitor I would use that as the SOC that you should go by.

The BMS is there to protect the cells from overcharging and undercharging and over temps and under temps. It will balance the cells but it's only half amp per cell. I find that over time the bigger packs like we are playing with balance out over time.

I like the Daly BMS units they work and I have tested them for the overvolt under volt, charge amps cut off, discharge cutoff amps.
I have not tested the low temp cut off of the high temp cut off. I will do that in the AM.

Any other questions let me know.
RGD
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My RE system: 3 Ea GS8048A Inverters, 87KW LiFePO battery, 15KW TenK Ground Mount Solar.

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by RGD »

I'm not real worried about over/under temp. My batteries are inside a conditioned space. That is one of the things I'm trying to offset. 3000Sq Ft of conditioned poorly insulated metal building (shop)! Winter's not so bad, have gas heat and it's set at 55. Summer on the other hand is a bear. 5 ton unit running 14 hours a day to keep it below 80. Luckily I'm in TVA country where power is cheap. $0.10 KWh.
sbrownian
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My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3 4 port HUB
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Off grid.
Originally installed with 1200 AH of FLA Locomotive batts.
Replaced after 9 years of service with 2 x 300 AH ReLion Lithium packs.
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by sbrownian »

Cheap? 10c kwh? Ouch.

Residential here is about 3c kwh. Commercial can be as low as 1.9c kwh for bulk users...

The three central Washington State counties of Chelan, Grant, and Douglas all trade around for the spot of lowest power costs in the country.

Just depends on who has revised their rate schedules last.
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
RGD
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My RE system: 3 Ea GS8048A Inverters, 87KW LiFePO battery, 15KW TenK Ground Mount Solar.

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by RGD »

I wouldn't have wasted my money on a solar system with power rates that cheap. It would take 20 years for a return on investment. Everyone that moves here says we have cheap power.
RGD
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My RE system: 3 Ea GS8048A Inverters, 87KW LiFePO battery, 15KW TenK Ground Mount Solar.

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by RGD »

Which model of DALY BMS do you have?
sbrownian
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My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3 4 port HUB
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Off grid.
Originally installed with 1200 AH of FLA Locomotive batts.
Replaced after 9 years of service with 2 x 300 AH ReLion Lithium packs.
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by sbrownian »

RGD wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:42 pm I wouldn't have wasted my money on a solar system with power rates that cheap. It would take 20 years for a return on investment. Everyone that moves here says we have cheap power.
The system is on a cabin about 10 miles past the last power pole...
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
raysun
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My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by raysun »

sbrownian wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:48 pm
RGD wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:42 pm I wouldn't have wasted my money on a solar system with power rates that cheap. It would take 20 years for a return on investment. Everyone that moves here says we have cheap power.
The system is on a cabin about 10 miles past the last power pole...
Heh! You don't like the ROI on $500k of power lines delivering $0.03/kWH power?
sbrownian
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Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3 4 port HUB
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Off grid.
Originally installed with 1200 AH of FLA Locomotive batts.
Replaced after 9 years of service with 2 x 300 AH ReLion Lithium packs.
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by sbrownian »

And the $50k a year of maintenance it would take to keep the line up?

Lotsa snow + trees + ice = headache..

Lineman is one job I think I'll take a pass on, but I'm glad they are out there doing it. Pretty tough bunch of folks.
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
raysun
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My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by raysun »

sbrownian wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:11 pm And the $50k a year of maintenance it would take to keep the line up?

Lotsa snow + trees + ice = headache..

Lineman is one job I think I'll take a pass on, but I'm glad they are out there doing it. Pretty tough bunch of folks.
I'm not a lineman for the county...
KeithBriggs
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Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:56 pm
My RE system: 1. Captain Cook, HI: 16k Radian 4 FM80 48 300w panels, 8 100aH Chinese LFP rack batteries 2. Evergreen, CO: 8k Radian 2 FM100 24 360w panels, 7 3.x simpliphi (2 more still 2b shipped from HI). Both grid tied HBX mode connect 50.4 disconnect 50.8.

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by KeithBriggs »

Hawaii up to $0.46/kwh! CO is about $0.11 but I want in CO because if power goes out, heat goes out as my new Rannai direct vent furnaces need 120v. Cheaper direct vents (forgot the name) will work without power but not 83% efficient. 3" hole in an external wall is sleeved intake are and exhaust air. Also well pump is electric, no power, no water.

I have propane now, had electric but changed out baseboards. Asked about taping into NG but they wanted $100k fee (also long run). $100k buys a lot of propane.
raysun
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Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by raysun »

We had a big power outage at our end of the island yesterday at 1AM, lasted 13 hours. I didn't know about it until somebody posted it on FB.
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sodamo
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Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by sodamo »

raysun wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:40 pm We had a big power outage at our end of the island yesterday at 1AM, lasted 13 hours. I didn't know about it until somebody posted it on FB.
Not yesterday (that I know of), but that happens often up here as well.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com
KeithBriggs
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Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:56 pm
My RE system: 1. Captain Cook, HI: 16k Radian 4 FM80 48 300w panels, 8 100aH Chinese LFP rack batteries 2. Evergreen, CO: 8k Radian 2 FM100 24 360w panels, 7 3.x simpliphi (2 more still 2b shipped from HI). Both grid tied HBX mode connect 50.4 disconnect 50.8.

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by KeithBriggs »

Ah, the beauty of self-supply!
raysun
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My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: LFP Recommendations - Mine so far, what are yours?

Post by raysun »

sodamo wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:50 pm
raysun wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:40 pm We had a big power outage at our end of the island yesterday at 1AM, lasted 13 hours. I didn't know about it until somebody posted it on FB.
Not yesterday (that I know of), but that happens often up here as well.
Wind blew down a main power line by the highway. Apparently everyone all around me was without power, except me, and the guy who lives under a tarp about 1/2 mile mauka.
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