LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Discussion about the OutBack Energy Cell Batteries
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Dnnap
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My RE system: Outback FlexPower One FXR3048A
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(1) LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100ah
Location: Ontario, Canada

LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by Dnnap »

I'm preparing to install a FXR-3048A Flexpower One system in an offgrid cabin with (6) 315W panels.
I picked up one LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100Ah battery, specs below. The manual from China is vague and indicates information which conflicts with the table supplied by the supplier (table shown below). I'm trying to determine the best charge settings to start with because the recommended charge voltage and low voltage cut off seem to be extreme.
I've been researching the Simpliphi recommended charge parameters and I'm not sure if I should start there or somewhere between the two recommendations.

The manual that came with the battery lists the following, some of which differ from the information shown in the table.
Bulk voltage = 58.4V
Absorb voltage = 58.4V
Absorb end amps = 0.01C (1amp) not listed in table below
Charge current = 0.2C (20amps) conflicts with table below
Discharge cut off voltage = 40V
LifePower lithiumTable-2.JPG
raysun
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REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by raysun »

The parameters seem a bit extreme, IME.

I'm guessing (with lack of available specs) that this is a 16 series cell battery. Typical LiFePO4 parameters are 3.6V per cell = fully charged, 2.4V per cell = fully discharged. These are resting (open circuit) voltages.

58.4V = 3.65Vpc. The cells, if high quality, may withstand that, but IMO there's little benefit to stressing them that way.

40.0V = 2.40Vpc. Essentially a dead battery by most accepted standards. 32V would be deader than dead in my book. However, a discharge rate is not specified. 32V under maximum load may be equivalent to 40V open circuit. I'd never attempt to discharge a battery to that level, but I tend to be fairly conservative with an eye on reasonable battery service life.

It will not hurt the battery to use more conservative charge and discharge targets. I'd think the SimpliPhi charging/discharging voltages and rates would be a good place to start.

There are a couple of current threads on this forum that are discussing SimpliPhi charging. They are long, and a bit convoluted, but there's a lot of good information in there.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=15813

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=15747
sbrownian
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Just replaced with
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MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by sbrownian »

ReLion specs for a '48'v 300 amp hour pack..
https://relionbattery.com/products/lithium/rb48v300
Screen grab from the info sheet..
Attachments
Relion-Screen-Grab.jpg
Dnnap
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My RE system: Outback FlexPower One FXR3048A
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(1) LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100ah
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by Dnnap »

raysun wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:53 am The parameters seem a bit extreme, IME.

I'm guessing (with lack of available specs) that this is a 16 series cell battery. Typical LiFePO4 parameters are 3.6V per cell = fully charged, 2.4V per cell = fully discharged. These are resting (open circuit) voltages.

58.4V = 3.65Vpc. The cells, if high quality, may withstand that, but IMO there's little benefit to stressing them that way.

40.0V = 2.40Vpc. Essentially a dead battery by most accepted standards. 32V would be deader than dead in my book. However, a discharge rate is not specified. 32V under maximum load may be equivalent to 40V open circuit. I'd never attempt to discharge a battery to that level, but I tend to be fairly conservative with an eye on reasonable battery service life.

It will not hurt the battery to use more conservative charge and discharge targets. I'd think the SimpliPhi charging/discharging voltages and rates would be a good place to start.

There are a couple of current threads on this forum that are discussing SimpliPhi charging. They are long, and a bit convoluted, but there's a lot of good information in there.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=15813

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=15747
Thanks raysun, I agree with you. I’d prefer to stay of the safe side of the high and low voltages until I can learn the characteristics of this battery.

I read both those referenced posts along with dozens of other posts before posting here.

As for the battery specs there is a table in the manual that indicates a nominal cell voltage of 3.2v, but the table did not list a 16 cell battery.
15E2CE59-434D-4FAD-90B9-2BBE99C81A4B.jpeg
raysun
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Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by raysun »

3.2Vpc × 16 = 51.6V nominal.

When the FlexPower panel is installed, if the Mate is connected to a Local Area Network via its ethernet port, its internal web server can be accessed. The web site is read-only, and presents a wealth of operational data, updated in near real time.

I use the Summary (main) page, and the Meters page to keep tabs on battery charging, especially as it approaches termination voltage if using 56.4V as the target. When fully charged, the charging current should decline rapidly.
Dnnap
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Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:49 am
My RE system: Outback FlexPower One FXR3048A
(6) 315w Longi solar panels (3S2P)
(1) LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100ah
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by Dnnap »

raysun wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:04 pm 3.2Vpc × 16 = 51.6V nominal.

When the FlexPower panel is installed, if the Mate is connected to a Local Area Network via its ethernet port, its internal web server can be accessed. The web site is read-only, and presents a wealth of operational data, updated in near real time.

I use the Summary (main) page, and the Meters page to keep tabs on battery charging, especially as it approaches termination voltage if using 56.4V as the target. When fully charged, the charging current should decline rapidly.
I found it strange the table from the battery manual didn’t list a 16 cell.
Unfortunately I won’t have internet access at the cabin to take advantage of the Optics RE other than a weak cell signal. I do plan on testing the system here at home for a few week, which does have internet connection.
raysun
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Posts: 4424
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by raysun »

Dnnap wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:24 pm
raysun wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:04 pm 3.2Vpc × 16 = 51.6V nominal.

When the FlexPower panel is installed, if the Mate is connected to a Local Area Network via its ethernet port, its internal web server can be accessed. The web site is read-only, and presents a wealth of operational data, updated in near real time.

I use the Summary (main) page, and the Meters page to keep tabs on battery charging, especially as it approaches termination voltage if using 56.4V as the target. When fully charged, the charging current should decline rapidly.
I found it strange the table from the battery manual didn’t list a 16 cell.
Unfortunately I won’t have internet access at the cabin to take advantage of the Optics RE other than a weak cell signal. I do plan on testing the system here at home for a few week, which does have internet connection.
Most battery vendors don't list the internal cell configuration for their lithium batteries.

The local web server essentially shows much of the same data as Optics, albeit in read-only text and simple graphics. It doesn't need an internet connection. In fact, with the proper ethernet cable, a tablet, laptop or pc could be directly connected. Its a little easier to see whats going on than navigating the Mate's display.
Dnnap
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Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:49 am
My RE system: Outback FlexPower One FXR3048A
(6) 315w Longi solar panels (3S2P)
(1) LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100ah
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by Dnnap »

Nice to know, thanks raysun. I was not aware of that option.
Do I need a specific software on my laptop to view the data after connecting the Ethernet cable to the Mate3s ?
sbrownian
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Posts: 503
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3
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7kw Kubota propane gen
Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by sbrownian »

Dnnap wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:34 pm Nice to know, thanks raysun. I was not aware of that option.
Do I need a specific software on my laptop to view the data after connecting the Ethernet cable to the Mate3s ?
Nope. Just a web browser. If you don't have a router to hand it an IP address, you will have to manually configure one in the Mate, and then put the laptop on the same subnet.

I forget if the Mate defaults to DHCP or not. If not, read what the Mate says is it's address and subnet, and set the laptop to the same address, but with the last octet off by one number or so.

If it is set to DHCP and you don't have a router, you will have to manually enter an IP address and subnet mask.

If it is set to DHCP and you DO have a router, you will have to determine what address the Mate was given. Look through the menu and it will list out what it was assigned.

IE: If the Mate is 192.168.1.50 and the subnet is 255.255.255.0 then put the laptop at 192.168.1.51 and the same subnet mask.

( You can put the laptop at 192.168.1.<<something here between 2 and 253, but NOT the number you picked for the Mate>> )
Last edited by sbrownian on Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dnnap
Forum Whiz
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:49 am
My RE system: Outback FlexPower One FXR3048A
(6) 315w Longi solar panels (3S2P)
(1) LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100ah
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by Dnnap »

sbrownian wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:21 am ReLion specs for a '48'v 300 amp hour pack..
https://relionbattery.com/products/lithium/rb48v300
Screen grab from the info sheet..
sbrownian, are you recommending I use the relion charge specifications?
sbrownian
Forum Czar
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by sbrownian »

Dnnap wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:45 pm
sbrownian wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:21 am ReLion specs for a '48'v 300 amp hour pack..
https://relionbattery.com/products/lithium/rb48v300
Screen grab from the info sheet..
sbrownian, are you recommending I use the relion charge specifications?
Nope. Just listing it for reference.
sbrownian
Forum Czar
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by sbrownian »

raysun wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:33 pm
Dnnap wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:24 pm
raysun wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:04 pm 3.2Vpc × 16 = 51.6V nominal.

When the FlexPower panel is installed, if the Mate is connected to a Local Area Network via its ethernet port, its internal web server can be accessed. The web site is read-only, and presents a wealth of operational data, updated in near real time.

I use the Summary (main) page, and the Meters page to keep tabs on battery charging, especially as it approaches termination voltage if using 56.4V as the target. When fully charged, the charging current should decline rapidly.
I found it strange the table from the battery manual didn’t list a 16 cell.
Unfortunately I won’t have internet access at the cabin to take advantage of the Optics RE other than a weak cell signal. I do plan on testing the system here at home for a few week, which does have internet connection.
Most battery vendors don't list the internal cell configuration for their lithium batteries.

The local web server essentially shows much of the same data as Optics, albeit in read-only text and simple graphics. It doesn't need an internet connection. In fact, with the proper ethernet cable, a tablet, laptop or pc could be directly connected. Its a little easier to see whats going on than navigating the Mate's display.
And I like to get an .xml 'dump' for backup and reference as well....
raysun
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Posts: 4424
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by raysun »

sbrownian wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:43 pm
Dnnap wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:34 pm Nice to know, thanks raysun. I was not aware of that option.
Do I need a specific software on my laptop to view the data after connecting the Ethernet cable to the Mate3s ?
Nope. Just a web browser. If you don't have a router to hand it an IP address, you will have to manually configure one in the Mate, and then put the laptop on the same subnet.

I forget if the Mate defaults to DHCP or not. If not, read what the Mate says is it's address and subnet, and set the laptop to the same address, but with the last octet off by one number or so.

If it is set to DHCP and you don't have a router, you will have to manually enter an IP address and subnet mask.

If it is set to DHCP and you DO have a router, you will have to determine what address the Mate was given. Look through the menu and it will list out what it was assigned.

IE: If the Mate is 192.168.1.50 and the subnet is 255.255.255.0 then put the laptop at 192.168.1.51 and the same subnet mask.

( You can put the laptop at 192.168.1.<<something here between 2 and 253, but NOT the number you picked for the Mate>> )
I believe the Mate has 192.168.0.64 as its default address. It has DHCP enabled by default as well, but I recommend disabling it and entering the IP information manually.
Dnnap
Forum Whiz
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:49 am
My RE system: Outback FlexPower One FXR3048A
(6) 315w Longi solar panels (3S2P)
(1) LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100ah
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by Dnnap »

raysun wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:53 pm
sbrownian wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:43 pm
Dnnap wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:34 pm Nice to know, thanks raysun. I was not aware of that option.
Do I need a specific software on my laptop to view the data after connecting the Ethernet cable to the Mate3s ?
Nope. Just a web browser. If you don't have a router to hand it an IP address, you will have to manually configure one in the Mate, and then put the laptop on the same subnet.

I forget if the Mate defaults to DHCP or not. If not, read what the Mate says is it's address and subnet, and set the laptop to the same address, but with the last octet off by one number or so.

If it is set to DHCP and you don't have a router, you will have to manually enter an IP address and subnet mask.

If it is set to DHCP and you DO have a router, you will have to determine what address the Mate was given. Look through the menu and it will list out what it was assigned.

IE: If the Mate is 192.168.1.50 and the subnet is 255.255.255.0 then put the laptop at 192.168.1.51 and the same subnet mask.

( You can put the laptop at 192.168.1.<<something here between 2 and 253, but NOT the number you picked for the Mate>> )
I believe the Mate has 192.168.0.64 as its default address. It has DHCP enabled by default as well, but I recommend disabling it and entering the IP information manually.
Understood, thanks rayson that will come in handy. I will use a small (Low power consumption) dedicated netbook for this. I have a few kicking around that I can use. Eventually if I get satellite internet at the cabin I will setup OpticsRE.
raysun
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Posts: 4424
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by raysun »

Dnnap wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:44 pm
raysun wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:53 pm
sbrownian wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:43 pm

Nope. Just a web browser. If you don't have a router to hand it an IP address, you will have to manually configure one in the Mate, and then put the laptop on the same subnet.

I forget if the Mate defaults to DHCP or not. If not, read what the Mate says is it's address and subnet, and set the laptop to the same address, but with the last octet off by one number or so.

If it is set to DHCP and you don't have a router, you will have to manually enter an IP address and subnet mask.

If it is set to DHCP and you DO have a router, you will have to determine what address the Mate was given. Look through the menu and it will list out what it was assigned.

IE: If the Mate is 192.168.1.50 and the subnet is 255.255.255.0 then put the laptop at 192.168.1.51 and the same subnet mask.

( You can put the laptop at 192.168.1.<<something here between 2 and 253, but NOT the number you picked for the Mate>> )
I believe the Mate has 192.168.0.64 as its default address. It has DHCP enabled by default as well, but I recommend disabling it and entering the IP information manually.
Understood, thanks rayson that will come in handy. I will use a small (Low power consumption) dedicated netbook for this. I have a few kicking around that I can use. Eventually if I get satellite internet at the cabin I will setup OpticsRE.
If you install an SD card in the Mate's reader, you can configure the Mate to write log data to it in 15 minute increments. Useful for debugging/performance analysis. It will write in XLS format so can be downloaded into a spreadsheet app. Smaller capacity cards seem to work better, and hold a ton of log data.
Dnnap
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Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:49 am
My RE system: Outback FlexPower One FXR3048A
(6) 315w Longi solar panels (3S2P)
(1) LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100ah
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by Dnnap »

Yes, the Mate3s came with a Kingston 16gb SD card.
raysun
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Posts: 4424
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by raysun »

That works.
sbrownian
Forum Czar
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by sbrownian »

raysun wrote:
I believe the Mate has 192.168.0.64 as its default address. It has DHCP enabled by default as well, but I recommend disabling it and entering the IP information manually.
That sounds familiar. I changed the port # so I could map it outside though..
Dnnap
Forum Whiz
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:49 am
My RE system: Outback FlexPower One FXR3048A
(6) 315w Longi solar panels (3S2P)
(1) LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100ah
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by Dnnap »

I'm starting to wire the Flexpower One and noticed the quick start guide shows a PV negative bus bar, which isn't there.
Is there an updated quick start guide available?
raysun
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Posts: 4424
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by raysun »

Dnnap wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:44 pm I'm starting to wire the Flexpower One and noticed the quick start guide shows a PV negative bus bar, which isn't there.
Is there an updated quick start guide available?
No sure about update, but PV - and BAT - are common in the FM charge controllers. Bat Neg Bus Bar services all.
Dnnap
Forum Whiz
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:49 am
My RE system: Outback FlexPower One FXR3048A
(6) 315w Longi solar panels (3S2P)
(1) LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100ah
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: LifePower Lifepo4 Charge Parameters

Post by Dnnap »

raysun wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:33 pm
Dnnap wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:44 pm I'm starting to wire the Flexpower One and noticed the quick start guide shows a PV negative bus bar, which isn't there.
Is there an updated quick start guide available?
No sure about update, but PV - and BAT - are common in the FM charge controllers. Bat Neg Bus Bar services all.
Thanks raysun. The newer version of the quick start guide shown in the upper image and the older version in the lower image.
My Flexpower One came with the quick start guide (newer version upper image), but without the bus bar. I'll be wiring as per the older quick start guide.
FP1 Quick Start Guide (Old vs New).jpg
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