Startup Procedure voltage drop

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Dnnap
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Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by Dnnap »

I'm currently trying to make my way through the startup procedure. I'm at the point where I'm checking the PV and Battery voltages with a digital volt meter.
PV VOC = 111.3V and the battery voltage = 54.4V.
When I initiate step 1, (close) turn on the GFDI breaker nothing happens and the voltage of the battery drops to 10v.
The wiring has been tripled checked and both the PV and battery are wired as per the OB instructions. Is there something I'm missing?
Mike Curran
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Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by Mike Curran »

Looking at the GFDI wiring diagram (attached screenshot), when you close the GFDI breaker you're also closing the battery to charge controller breaker, which shouldn't cause your battery voltage to drop. Where are you measuring it?

It's hard to say what's going on without seeing firsthand how you've wired your FP1, but I suspect it's not according to this W/D.
Screenshot_20210109-180448.png
https://smart.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45?date=2021-04-19
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
Dnnap
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Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by Dnnap »

Mike Curran wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:12 pm Looking at the GFDI wiring diagram (attached screenshot), when you close the GFDI breaker you're also closing the battery to charge controller breaker, which shouldn't cause your battery voltage to drop. Where are you measuring it?

It's hard to say what's going on without seeing firsthand how you've wired your FP1, but I suspect it's not according to this W/D. Screenshot_20210109-180448.png
I've measured it at 3 different locations with the same voltage drop at all 3 locations.
First location - Battery (+) terminal at the battery breaker (1b on attached image) and battery negative (-) on Inverter (1a on attached image).
2nd location - Battery (+) terminal at the battery breaker (1b on attached image) and battery negative (-) on CC.
3rd location - Battery (+) and (-) at battery.

If I open (shut off) the GFDI breaker the battery voltage goes back to 54.4V at all 3 locations.
The BMS voltage on the battery LCD screen remains at 54.4V regardless if the breaker is open or closed.
FLexpower One-Image-1.JPG
Dnnap
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Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by Dnnap »

Below is a picture of the wiring.
Battery positive and negative
PV positive, negative and ground
All other wiring supplied by OB.
fx1.jpg
Below picture (upper image) GFDI = OFF, voltage = 54.3V, (lower image) GFDI - ON, voltage = 6.8V
fx1-voltage.jpg
Mike Curran
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Posts: 2278
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 microinverters

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by Mike Curran »

3rd location - Battery (+) and (-) at battery...

The BMS voltage on the battery LCD screen remains at 54.4V regardless if the breaker is open or closed.
If your BMS reads 54.4 with the GFDI breaker both open and closed, while your voltmeter reads 6.8V at the battery itself (GFDI closed), it sounds like you have a bad connection in your battery + lead. I know, hard to believe considering how large these connections are, but there's no way your battery terminal voltage should differ from your BMS readout.
https://smart.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45?date=2021-04-19
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
Dnnap
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Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by Dnnap »

Thanks Mike. Yes I thought that too, so I checked and reconnected and torqued both (+/-) battery terminals. Battery is a LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100ah battery.
I also checked all the connections I made (5 connections described above) and all seem to have good connection and torqued to spec.
I’m not sure what to check from here.
sbrownian
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Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by sbrownian »

BMS for the battery pack doing some weirdness?

Edit: With all the external DC breakers open, try taking a 100 watt (or larger,) incandescent bulb and figure out a method of getting it across the battery terminals. Does it glow at all?

Thinking perhaps BMS has 'disconnected' the battery, but it may 'leak' enough that with no load, a voltmeter will still see voltage? I dunno, not familiar with the behavior of the Simplify system...
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
Dnnap
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Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:49 am
My RE system: Outback FlexPower One FXR3048A
(6) 315w Longi solar panels (3S2P)
(1) LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100ah
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by Dnnap »

sbrownian wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:28 pm BMS for the battery pack doing some weirdness?

Edit: With all the external DC breakers open, try taking a 100 watt (or larger,) incandescent bulb and figure out a method of getting it across the battery terminals. Does it glow at all?

Thinking perhaps BMS has 'disconnected' the battery, but it may 'leak' enough that with no load, a voltmeter will still see voltage? I dunno, not familiar with the behavior of the Simplify system...
I tried the 100w light bulb test and it did not light up at all. Could the BMS be the issue not allowing enough current out to the load?
raysun
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My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
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REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by raysun »

This installation is a pre-wired FlexPower panel, is that correct?

Looking at the pictures of the exposed wiring has one point of confusion for me in the FlexMax charge controller wiring.

The battery negative (-) terminal has a white wire connected and labeled "shunt.." which appears to connect to a shunt, properly so.

The PV negative (-) terminal has a white wire installed as well. This does not appear to be a factory installed wire, and terminates somewhere in the DC wiring panel. Was this wire field installed? Where is it terminated?

In the FM charge controller, the Bat - and PV - are electrically common. In a normal installation, there is need for only one of the terminals to be wired to the Battery Negative bus bar (in this case, the Bat -, via the shunt.)
Dnnap
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Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:49 am
My RE system: Outback FlexPower One FXR3048A
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(1) LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100ah
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by Dnnap »

raysun wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:14 am This installation is a pre-wired FlexPower panel, is that correct?

Looking at the pictures of the exposed wiring has one point of confusion for me in the FlexMax charge controller wiring.

The battery negative (-) terminal has a white wire connected and labeled "shunt.." which appears to connect to a shunt, properly so.

The PV negative (-) terminal has a white wire installed as well. This does not appear to be a factory installed wire, and terminates somewhere in the DC wiring panel. Was this wire field installed? Where is it terminated?

In the FM charge controller, the Bat - and PV - are electrically common. In a normal installation, there is need for only one of the terminals to be wired to the Battery Negative bus bar (in this case, the Bat -, via the shunt.)
Yes, this is a pre-wired Flexpower One panel.
The PV negative (-) was field installed and goes to the combiner box at the PV panels
Wired as per the below image. If incorrect, where should the PV(-) be wired to?
FP1 Quick Start Guide-1.jpg
sbrownian
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My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3
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Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by sbrownian »

Dnnap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:38 am
sbrownian wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:28 pm BMS for the battery pack doing some weirdness?

Edit: With all the external DC breakers open, try taking a 100 watt (or larger,) incandescent bulb and figure out a method of getting it across the battery terminals. Does it glow at all?

Thinking perhaps BMS has 'disconnected' the battery, but it may 'leak' enough that with no load, a voltmeter will still see voltage? I dunno, not familiar with the behavior of the Simplify system...
I tried the 100w light bulb test and it did not light up at all. Could the BMS be the issue not allowing enough current out to the load?
The ReLions have a 'turn on the battery' push button on the case. Is there something similar in this bank to tell the BMS to enable output?

Any way to tell the state of charge of the battery? (Other than voltage..)

It was installed with at least 50% charge to begin with?
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
Dnnap
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Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:49 am
My RE system: Outback FlexPower One FXR3048A
(6) 315w Longi solar panels (3S2P)
(1) LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100ah
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by Dnnap »

sbrownian wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:38 am
Dnnap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:38 am
sbrownian wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:28 pm BMS for the battery pack doing some weirdness?

Edit: With all the external DC breakers open, try taking a 100 watt (or larger,) incandescent bulb and figure out a method of getting it across the battery terminals. Does it glow at all?

Thinking perhaps BMS has 'disconnected' the battery, but it may 'leak' enough that with no load, a voltmeter will still see voltage? I dunno, not familiar with the behavior of the Simplify system...
I tried the 100w light bulb test and it did not light up at all. Could the BMS be the issue not allowing enough current out to the load?
The ReLions have a 'turn on the battery' push button on the case. Is there something similar in this bank to tell the BMS to enable output?

Any way to tell the state of charge of the battery? (Other than voltage..)

It was installed with at least 50% charge to begin with?
This battery has a lcd display screen with one button to wake the screen. No battery on button.
Yes, it was installed at 100%, 55.4V.
IMG_8924.jpg
LifePower.jpg
LifePower.jpg (6.28 KiB) Viewed 1035 times
sbrownian
Forum Czar
Posts: 538
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by sbrownian »

They don't have scat on their webpage for supporting docs.

Last resort, disconnect all the battery modules so you can test them individually right at the terminals with the light bulb.

Edit.. It would help if you filled out your profile as to what gear you have..

(Unless I missed it in an earlier post...)
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
Dnnap
Forum Whiz
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:49 am
My RE system: Outback FlexPower One FXR3048A
(6) 315w Longi solar panels (3S2P)
(1) LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100ah
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by Dnnap »

sbrownian wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:53 am They don't have scat on their webpage for supporting docs.

Last resort, disconnect all the battery modules so you can test them individually right at the terminals with the light bulb.

Edit.. It would help if you filled out your profile as to what gear you have..

(Unless I missed it in an earlier post...)
I have only one battery and I isolated it (disconnected from Flexpower One) prior to testing with a light bulb. The 100w bulb did not light up when connected to the isolated battery.
raysun
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My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by raysun »

The PV - from the combiner should be fine tied to the FM PV - terminal, though in later wiring implementations the combiner wire is connected directly to the Bat - terminal bus bar.
Screenshot_20210110-095731_Google.jpg
Blue Pacific has published several wiring diagrams, and they are updated/different than the diagrams Outback publishes. Here's another variation.
Dnnap
Forum Whiz
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:49 am
My RE system: Outback FlexPower One FXR3048A
(6) 315w Longi solar panels (3S2P)
(1) LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100ah
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by Dnnap »

raysun wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:04 pm The PV - from the combiner should be fine tied to the FM PV - terminal, though in later wiring implementations the combiner wire is connected directly to the Bat - terminal bus bar.

Screenshot_20210110-095731_Google.jpg

Blue Pacific has published several wiring diagrams, and they are updated/different than the diagrams Outback publishes. Here's another variation.
Yes, thanks raysun. I had questioned the different schematics in my last post in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=15906

The Bat (-) bus bar does not exist as shown in the newer quick start guide. I'm not sure if it was missed by OB.
Would having the PV (-) wired after the shunt cause an issue with the shunt?
Dnnap
Forum Whiz
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:49 am
My RE system: Outback FlexPower One FXR3048A
(6) 315w Longi solar panels (3S2P)
(1) LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100ah
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by Dnnap »

Two different quick start guide wiring diagrams shown below.
FP1 Quick Start Guide (Old vs New).jpg
raysun
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Posts: 4591
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by raysun »

Dnnap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:13 pm
raysun wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:04 pm The PV - from the combiner should be fine tied to the FM PV - terminal, though in later wiring implementations the combiner wire is connected directly to the Bat - terminal bus bar.

Screenshot_20210110-095731_Google.jpg

Blue Pacific has published several wiring diagrams, and they are updated/different than the diagrams Outback publishes. Here's another variation.
Yes, thanks raysun. I had questioned the different schematics in my last post in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=15906

The Bat (-) bus bar does not exist as shown in the newer quick start guide. I'm not sure if it was missed by OB.
Would having the PV (-) wired after the shunt cause an issue with the shunt?
Since the Bat - and PV - are common in the FM charge controller, both should be on the same side of the shunt. Wiring the combiner PV - directly to the FM PV -, and the FM Bat - to the "load" side of the shunt should work fine.
sbrownian
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My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3
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7kw Kubota propane gen
Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by sbrownian »

Dnnap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:00 pm
sbrownian wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:53 am They don't have scat on their webpage for supporting docs.

Last resort, disconnect all the battery modules so you can test them individually right at the terminals with the light bulb.

Edit.. It would help if you filled out your profile as to what gear you have..

(Unless I missed it in an earlier post...)
I have only one battery and I isolated it (disconnected from Flexpower One) prior to testing with a light bulb. The 100w bulb did not light up when connected to the isolated battery.
I gotta ask just to make sure...
The bulb is an incandescent tungsten filament one right? And it will glow dimly, since it is less than half of it's normal voltage.

Just for SnG*, hook your voltmeter up to the battery terminals and see what it reads, (high impedance load,) then connect the lightbulb.


At this point, better call who ya got it from, and ask if there are any magic incantations to be done to activate it..
(A 'hidden' button to press, perhaps?)

Did it come with any documentation?

*Sh!ts and Grins...
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
Dnnap
Forum Whiz
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:49 am
My RE system: Outback FlexPower One FXR3048A
(6) 315w Longi solar panels (3S2P)
(1) LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100ah
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by Dnnap »

Yes, the bulb is a incandescent 100w tungsten filament and will light glow dimly at 54v.
It did come with a basic manual. No mention of BMS reset or any specifics about the BMS other than voltage fault levels.
sbrownian
Forum Czar
Posts: 538
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by sbrownian »

Time to call tech support for the battery, I'd say..
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
sbrownian
Forum Czar
Posts: 538
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by sbrownian »

Dnnap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:10 pm Yes, the bulb is a incandescent 100w tungsten filament and will light glow dimly at 54v.
It did come with a basic manual. No mention of BMS reset or any specifics about the BMS other than voltage fault levels.
Did you ever get this going?
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
Dnnap
Forum Whiz
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:49 am
My RE system: Outback FlexPower One FXR3048A
(6) 315w Longi solar panels (3S2P)
(1) LifePower Lifepo4 48V 100ah
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by Dnnap »

sbrownian wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:13 am
Dnnap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:10 pm Yes, the bulb is a incandescent 100w tungsten filament and will light glow dimly at 54v.
It did come with a basic manual. No mention of BMS reset or any specifics about the BMS other than voltage fault levels.
Did you ever get this going?
Yes, it turns out the BMS was preventing adequate current flow at power-up. The high or low voltage cut out must have occurred prior to me purchasing the battery. Following a reset of the bms all seems to be working fine other than a low power input from my solar array. I have (6) 315w panels 3s2p, but only pulling in 40w on a cloudy day and around 300w on a partial sunny day. I’m hoping it’s due to the sun angle in January for southern Ontario.
sbrownian
Forum Czar
Posts: 538
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by sbrownian »

Dnnap wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:58 pm
sbrownian wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:13 am
Dnnap wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:10 pm Yes, the bulb is a incandescent 100w tungsten filament and will light glow dimly at 54v.
It did come with a basic manual. No mention of BMS reset or any specifics about the BMS other than voltage fault levels.
Did you ever get this going?
Yes, it turns out the BMS was preventing adequate current flow at power-up. The high or low voltage cut out must have occurred prior to me purchasing the battery. Following a reset of the bms all seems to be working fine other than a low power input from my solar array. I have (6) 315w panels 3s2p, but only pulling in 40w on a cloudy day and around 300w on a partial sunny day. I’m hoping it’s due to the sun angle in January for southern Ontario.
So, what was the reset procedure for the BMS? (Just curious...)
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
sbrownian
Forum Czar
Posts: 538
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: Startup Procedure voltage drop

Post by sbrownian »

sbrownian wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:02 am
Dnnap wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:58 pm
sbrownian wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:13 am

Did you ever get this going?
Yes, it turns out the BMS was preventing adequate current flow at power-up. The high or low voltage cut out must have occurred prior to me purchasing the battery. Following a reset of the bms all seems to be working fine other than a low power input from my solar array. I have (6) 315w panels 3s2p, but only pulling in 40w on a cloudy day and around 300w on a partial sunny day. I’m hoping it’s due to the sun angle in January for southern Ontario.
So, what was the reset procedure for the BMS? (Just curious...)
And make sure your panels don't have any shadowing...
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
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