Radian GS8048A Grid/Gen Support max power to Output

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ysp
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Radian GS8048A Grid/Gen Support max power to Output

Post by ysp »

I needed to double-check when on Grid Support what is the max power the GS8048A + Grid/Gen Input can deliver to loads? I think somewhere I read 50A (240V) is max output from the Radian, does the include Grid/Gen power transferred to load?
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Re: Radian GS8048A Grid/Gen Support max power to Output

Post by raysun »

Outback has two operating modes with similar sounding names but different functionality: Support, and Grid Support.

Support is essentially an off-grid mode, or where grid AC input is used as a backup source.
Grid Support works in a grid-interactive system.

Which function are you asking about?
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Re: Radian GS8048A Grid/Gen Support max power to Output

Post by Mike Curran »

raysun wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:54 pmSupport is essentially an off-grid mode, or where grid AC input is used as a backup source.
I'm mincing words here, but when I read the Radian manual's description of "Support", the first sentence tells me this mode is for systems whose primary AC source is external to the Radian system.
Screenshot_20220108-072503_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
It goes on to say, "If large loads are required, the Radian inverter augments (supports) the AC source." I'm not off grid, but I wonder if you off grid guys consider your primary source to be your generator, with your battery as the backup, as this mode seems to indicate?

To the OP's question, Grid Support is exactly that: it provides support to the grid when it's stressed, with symptoms like low voltage or off frequency. I don't think that is the function he is asking about: "what is the max power the GS8048A + Grid/Gen Input can deliver to loads?".

Per the manual, "In a MATE3-class system display, the Grid Input AC Limit dictates the maximum AC draw for the Grid input." This table lists the max AC input as 50A.
Screenshot_20220108-074644_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
The description of the Support function implies the Radian can draw that 50A from grid and then add to it for support. I don't see where the manual states how much can be added and this is the OP's question. I don't know the answer.
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Re: Radian GS8048A Grid/Gen Support max power to Output

Post by raysun »

It goes on to say, "If large loads are required, the Radian inverter augments (supports) the AC source." I'm not off grid, but I wonder if you off grid guys consider your primary source to be your generator, with your battery as the backup, as this mode seems to indicate?
In short, no. We off grid guys consider battery to be the primary source with generator as backup. The context of the Support documentation is confusing, as it is describing (at least in my view) a condition where the backup AC INput has been activated, and goes on to catalog the interaction.

FWIW, I run my dual FXRs in Support mode, and have never had it activate. My loads, under normal usage, are never large enough to exceed my generator's output. At least that I've ever noticed during daytime generator runs.
The description of the Support function implies the Radian can draw that 50A from grid and then add to it for support. I don't see where the manual states how much can be added...
That part is vexingly hazy. When I initially tested support, I ran around and turned on every load I could. I got up to around 7kW before overloading the kitchen 20A circuit breaker and losing a good chunk of my test load.

What's left unsaid is a vague notion the full output of AC source + full output of inverter can be achieved, but I cannot say as I cannot test at that load.

OP's question goes unanswered. However, since both "Support" and "Grid Support" were mentioned, I'm not sure, exactly, what question is being asked. My reading of the Radian manual describes them as two entirely different functions.
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- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 microinverters

Battery systems operate in grid-tied, net metering w/backup mode
All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Radian GS8048A Grid/Gen Support max power to Output

Post by Mike Curran »

The OP uses the words Grid Support but he obviously means Support: "What is the max power the GS8048A + Grid/Gen Input can deliver to loads?"
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Re: Radian GS8048A Grid/Gen Support max power to Output

Post by raysun »

Mike Curran wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:45 am The OP uses the words Grid Support but he obviously means Support: "What is the max power the GS8048A + Grid/Gen Input can deliver to loads?"
I assumed so as well, but asked for clarification. If for no other reason, so OP doesn't get the two manual entries confused.

The 50A comment lead me to believe, there's still parameters and performance factors not fully understood. Of course, the 50A rating is for AC IN and the transfer switch. Simple math precludes it from being the inverter's output capacity: 8kVA/240V~33A. On the other hand, 240Vx50A=12kVA, well outside the inverter's rating.
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Re: Radian GS8048A Grid/Gen Support max power to Output

Post by EA6LE-ONE »

raysun wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:53 am
Mike Curran wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:45 am The OP uses the words Grid Support but he obviously means Support: "What is the max power the GS8048A + Grid/Gen Input can deliver to loads?"
I assumed so as well, but asked for clarification. If for no other reason, so OP doesn't get the two manual entries confused.

The 50A comment lead me to believe, there's still parameters and performance factors not fully understood. Of course, the 50A rating is for AC IN and the transfer switch. Simple math precludes it from being the inverter's output capacity: 8kVA/240V~33A. On the other hand, 240Vx50A=12kVA, well outside the inverter's rating.
While AC on grid or generator is connected the output of the radian is max 50A . in support can also output max 50A. while inverting will be max 33A with the surge capability up to 50A.

In support mode the radian will only to augment the AC. If is on support mode or mini-grid with the AC dropped the radian will do the same: inverting power. With the AC in use, support mode will augment the AC in with battery if needed and in mini-grid will only use the AC for loads and depending on the limit on AC in and battery charge limit will use from the extra AC that is not used by the loads to charge the battery. haven't used the support to see how is charging the battery but I suspect is the same like in mini-grid with the difference that will draw from the battery when the loads exceeds the AC IN and will create mini cycles on the battery. My opinion is if the generator or the AC IN can supply the loads then mini-grid will be the better choice. Theorizing :in support the inverter might pull from battery every time there is a change in load and then adjust the output with the incoming AC (this might be valid for motor starting).
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Re: Radian GS8048A Grid/Gen Support max power to Output

Post by raysun »

While AC on grid or generator is connected the output of the radian is max 50A . in support can also output max 50A. while inverting will be max 33A with the surge capability up to 50A.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but wile AC on grid or generator, output of the Radian is 0A. The 50A is supplied by the AC source. The Radians inverter function is not active.

50A surge is not a continuous rating.

Are you saying Support output is limited to 50A? How was that determined?
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Re: Radian GS8048A Grid/Gen Support max power to Output

Post by EA6LE-ONE »

raysun wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:22 am
Are you saying Support output is limited to 50A? How was that determined?

I don't see anywhere in the data sheet of the radian advertising the maximum output in support mode and if maximum that the radian can use from AC input is 50A one can assume that that will be the output as well. The advertised wire and breakers for input and output are 60A, one also will assume the input and output will be the same.
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Re: Radian GS8048A Grid/Gen Support max power to Output

Post by raysun »

EA6LE-ONE wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 12:06 pm
raysun wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:22 am
Are you saying Support output is limited to 50A? How was that determined?

I don't see anywhere in the data sheet of the radian advertising the maximum output in support mode and if maximum that the radian can use from AC input is 50A one can assume that that will be the output as well. The advertised wire and breakers for input and output are 60A, one also will assume the input and output will be the same.
Yes, the output breakers certainly set a limit in any power circuit. 50AAC continuous is 12kVA, certainly a good amount of power.

If OP is hoping for more output, I'd suggest calling Outback Sales and see what they have to say about Support on a GS8048A.
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Re: Radian GS8048A Grid/Gen Support max power to Output

Post by ysp »

raysun wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:59 pm
EA6LE-ONE wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 12:06 pm
raysun wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:22 am
Are you saying Support output is limited to 50A? How was that determined?

I don't see anywhere in the data sheet of the radian advertising the maximum output in support mode and if maximum that the radian can use from AC input is 50A one can assume that that will be the output as well. The advertised wire and breakers for input and output are 60A, one also will assume the input and output will be the same.
Yes, the output breakers certainly set a limit in any power circuit. 50AAC continuous is 12kVA, certainly a good amount of power.

If OP is hoping for more output, I'd suggest calling Outback Sales and see what they have to say about Support on a GS8048A.
Yeah, I was hoping for more power than 50A. I will try to call Outback Sales/Technical support. Hopefully, they can give a clear-cut answer.

I am trying to compare the grid-support mode to some other non-Outback inverter on the market.

Thanks for the answers!
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Re: Radian GS8048A Grid/Gen Support max power to Output

Post by raysun »

Yes, if you're comparative shopping then the sales folks will be a better resource than the user forum.

From a practical user standpoint, the way to get more than 12kW of output is to deploy more than 12kW of inverters. Relying on blended sources, or surge capacity, for other than short-durations is asking for trouble.
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78 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W

System 2:
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Re: Radian GS8048A Grid/Gen Support max power to Output

Post by EA6LE-ONE »

ysp wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:42 pm

Yeah, I was hoping for more power than 50A. I will try to call Outback Sales/Technical support. Hopefully, they can give a clear-cut answer.

I am trying to compare the grid-support mode to some other non-Outback inverter on the market.

Thanks for the answers!
To be safe will best to have 2 inverters. In my opinion always have the inverters and ups equipment used up to 50% of their capacity with occasional loads up to 80-90%.
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Re: Radian GS8048A Grid/Gen Support max power to Output

Post by Sparkey »

Not sure what your end use is..
Support?
Grid interactive (buy-sell)?
Grid Zero?
Some modes require lots of batteries and solar panels and maybe 2 or 3 8048a's..
An idea if this was for backup would be a stand by generator since a 6kw would be far less
then the cost of a battery bank and inverter with solar panels and a charge controller
especially if this was for limited spot usage..
If you want interactive and limited emergency use there are better choices then the Radian
like micro inverters directly on the panels or a high voltage DC inverter that is direct interactive..
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