First brownouts on critical loads (6 year old system)

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EA6LE-ONE
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My RE system: System 1:
MATE3s, 3 x Radian GS8048A,
4 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10,
2 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 4 x FLEXware ICS Plus,
54 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W

System 2:
MATE3s, 2 x VFX3648,
2 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10
1 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 2 x FLEXware ICS
21 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W
Location: Providenciales, Turks & Caicos Isl.

Re: First brownouts on critical loads (6 year old system)

Post by EA6LE-ONE »

small correction about earlier. the charge voltage on FNDC should be 57.2. the absorb is 57.60.
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EA6LE-ONE
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Posts: 342
Joined: Tue May 05, 2020 7:51 am
My RE system: System 1:
MATE3s, 3 x Radian GS8048A,
4 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10,
2 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 4 x FLEXware ICS Plus,
54 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W

System 2:
MATE3s, 2 x VFX3648,
2 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10
1 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 2 x FLEXware ICS
21 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W
Location: Providenciales, Turks & Caicos Isl.

Re: First brownouts on critical loads (6 year old system)

Post by EA6LE-ONE »

If you don't have outback charge controllers, you cannot control the charging well and take advantage of the FNDC.
brianman
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Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:09 pm
My RE system: Mate3 [3.19.1]
GS8048 [1.4.1]
FLEXnet DC [1.1.71]
12x 200RE batteries in IBR-3-48-175
1x Delta M8-TL-US
1x Delta M5-TL-US
8.64 kW solar (32 x Itek Energy iT-270-HE)
Leviton 51110-SRG
Installed 12/2014

Re: First brownouts on critical loads (6 year old system)

Post by brianman »

EA6LE-ONE wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:37 pm small correction about earlier. the charge voltage on FNDC should be 57.2. the absorb is 57.60.
[GS8048] / [Battery Charging] / [Absorb Voltage] was already 57.60 (and was left as is).
[FLEXnet DC] / [Battery Charging] / [Charged Voltage] changed to 57.2 (from 54.0).
User avatar
EA6LE-ONE
Forum Guru
Posts: 342
Joined: Tue May 05, 2020 7:51 am
My RE system: System 1:
MATE3s, 3 x Radian GS8048A,
4 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10,
2 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 4 x FLEXware ICS Plus,
54 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W

System 2:
MATE3s, 2 x VFX3648,
2 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10
1 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 2 x FLEXware ICS
21 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W
Location: Providenciales, Turks & Caicos Isl.

Re: First brownouts on critical loads (6 year old system)

Post by EA6LE-ONE »

brianman wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:45 pm
EA6LE-ONE wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:37 pm small correction about earlier. the charge voltage on FNDC should be 57.2. the absorb is 57.60.
[GS8048] / [Battery Charging] / [Absorb Voltage] was already 57.60 (and was left as is).
[FLEXnet DC] / [Battery Charging] / [Charged Voltage] changed to 57.2 (from 54.0).
When you charge with solar the FNDC will not initiate the absorb termination based on the charge voltage and end amps as you don't have outback CCs.
will work only when you charge with the inverter.
you will have to change the batteries soon and for the best performance you should change the CCs to outback.
brianman
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Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:09 pm
My RE system: Mate3 [3.19.1]
GS8048 [1.4.1]
FLEXnet DC [1.1.71]
12x 200RE batteries in IBR-3-48-175
1x Delta M8-TL-US
1x Delta M5-TL-US
8.64 kW solar (32 x Itek Energy iT-270-HE)
Leviton 51110-SRG
Installed 12/2014

Re: First brownouts on critical loads (6 year old system)

Post by brianman »

EA6LE-ONE wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:55 pmyou will have to change the batteries soon
Can you elaborate on this? Safety issues? Will it just tip over (not provide UPS-like behavior at all), or just limited duration relative to when the batteries were new?

If it's merely a limited duration issue, then I'd like to be able to demo that with grid detach and be able to see/show it in the charts.

Thanks.

Discussing with the wife and I'd like more details before I get another earful.
EA6LE-ONE wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:55 pmfor the best performance you should change the CCs to outback.
Unlikely to get household agreement on that one. :sad:
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EA6LE-ONE
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Posts: 342
Joined: Tue May 05, 2020 7:51 am
My RE system: System 1:
MATE3s, 3 x Radian GS8048A,
4 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10,
2 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 4 x FLEXware ICS Plus,
54 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W

System 2:
MATE3s, 2 x VFX3648,
2 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10
1 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 2 x FLEXware ICS
21 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W
Location: Providenciales, Turks & Caicos Isl.

Re: First brownouts on critical loads (6 year old system)

Post by EA6LE-ONE »

if the batteries were used only as backup and discharge very rarely and kept continuously on float and in a temperature controlled environment then probably have some use left in them.
if they were cycled every day and charged with solar and not monitored and charged using the FNDC then they are probably at the end of life.

I think raysun had the same batteries and he can help with more info how to check their status.
brianman
Forum Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:09 pm
My RE system: Mate3 [3.19.1]
GS8048 [1.4.1]
FLEXnet DC [1.1.71]
12x 200RE batteries in IBR-3-48-175
1x Delta M8-TL-US
1x Delta M5-TL-US
8.64 kW solar (32 x Itek Energy iT-270-HE)
Leviton 51110-SRG
Installed 12/2014

Re: First brownouts on critical loads (6 year old system)

Post by brianman »

EA6LE-ONE wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:07 pm if the batteries were used only as backup and discharge very rarely and kept continuously on float and in a temperature controlled environment then probably have some use left in them.
if they were cycled every day and charged with solar and not monitored and charged using the FNDC then they are probably at the end of life.

I think raysun had the same batteries and he can help with more info how to check their status.
We keep them at float in a well insulated garage and use it as battery backup when the power goes out. We don't do cycling for reasons other than grid power outage.

Thanks for the info and recommendations.
raysun
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Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
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Re: First brownouts on critical loads (6 year old system)

Post by raysun »

My first thought about the performance behavior change was battery condition. The 200RE is a good quality VRLA battery, but not one necessarily optimized for long duration float operation.

I used the 200NC in daily cycling operation and got about 5 years out of them to 80% of their original capacity.

I suggest doing some tests on the battery.

The first would be to measure the voltages of each monoblock. At rest, they should measure more or less the same. Under load, variances may show up.

After a certain depth of discharge, a monoblock with damaged cells may actually "invert" voltage, showing a negative value. I had a failed monoblock that exhibited this behavior at roughly 25% Depth of Discharge (75% State of Charge.)

Discharge the battery to 50% SoC, and check under-load, then resting voltages, at that level.

If the voltages look reasonable, then fully recharge the battery and perform a capacity test. Typically, this would be a 25 Amp continuous discharge to 42 Volts. The amount of discharge current in Amp Hours as measured on the FNDC would represent the battery AH capacity.
brianman
Forum Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:09 pm
My RE system: Mate3 [3.19.1]
GS8048 [1.4.1]
FLEXnet DC [1.1.71]
12x 200RE batteries in IBR-3-48-175
1x Delta M8-TL-US
1x Delta M5-TL-US
8.64 kW solar (32 x Itek Energy iT-270-HE)
Leviton 51110-SRG
Installed 12/2014

Re: First brownouts on critical loads (6 year old system)

Post by brianman »

raysun wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:13 pmDischarge the battery to 50% SoC
How do I detect this? After ~18 hours of ~1kW load while off-grid, the Web UI remained locked in at 100% SOC.
raysun
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My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: First brownouts on critical loads (6 year old system)

Post by raysun »

Hmmm....

I'd say either the system was not on battery, or the FNDC is not functioning properly.

The FNDC reads current flow into and out of the battery by reading the values across one or more shunts. The typical system uses two shunts: one for current into the battery from the solar charge controller, and one for everything else. The latter is usually reading current flowing from battery to inverter when inverting, or from inverter/charger when on grid or generator.

Confirm the number of shunts in the system, and via the Mate, or OpticsRE that they are enabled.
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