FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

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bikermiker
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FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by bikermiker »

Hey all. I've read a few threads on this. One was really hard to read with no real solution that made sense and I couldn't find specifically what to do to remedy the issue for sure by reading the others I could find.... If this is covered somewhere can you help a brother out?

I ran my batteries down to 45%, according to Optics / FNDC. Ever since then, I've been getting weird readings for battery % SoC. It's showing full (100%) at a much lower voltage than before.

I checked the battery terminals with my volt/ohm meter and the voltage appears to match.

I charged the system fully today and unplugged the FNDC from the Hub for 10 seconds and plugged it back in, but that didn't seem to help.

Someone here had mentioned leaving it uplugged all day while charging and plugging it back in once batteries were full.
Another person here said to charge the batteries to 56.4 volts, which I'm not going to try without verifying.

All charge settings for the FNDC, 8048, FM100s and Mate3s are set to the settings Simpliphi specifies in the guide released April of 2020.

I can't tell and don't know if the FNDC settings below actually controls anything.
Screen Shot 2021-03-11 at 18.07.16.png
sbrownian
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Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by sbrownian »

I wonder if an NVRAM reset would help...


Anyone?
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
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Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by Mike Curran »

The Simpliphi integration guide says this regarding SOC and the FNDC:
Instead of using the FNDC for SoC readings, the PHI Batteries’ most accurate SoC gauge is according to voltage:
And then it displays this chart:
Screenshot_20210311-185737_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
I know it'd be nice to rely on the SOC indicated by the FNDC, but voltage appears to be your best indicator, per Simpliphi.
https://smart.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45?date=2021-04-19
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
bikermiker
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Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by bikermiker »

Ug... How did I miss that?

Seems to correlate with what I'm seeing and reading. I've been playing with the sell voltage lately and when I discharged to 45% one evening, that's when things started getting weird.
Mike Curran wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:01 pm The Simpliphi integration guide says this regarding SOC and the FNDC:
Instead of using the FNDC for SoC readings, the PHI Batteries’ most accurate SoC gauge is according to voltage:
And then it displays this chart:
Screenshot_20210311-185737_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
I know it'd be nice to rely on the SOC indicated by the FNDC, but voltage appears to be your best indicator, per Simpliphi.
sbrownian
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Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by sbrownian »

Same with the ReLions.
Got a text last night with the owner wondering if the voltage was too low, even though the FNDC was indicating 27% At 46.7v I told him to immediately start the generator, as the pack was almost completely dead. The discharge curves showed them at less than 5% and it was likely lower than that.

I had him to verify both disconnect buttons were green, and that the terminal voltages were close to each other while it was charging. (They were within a tenth of a volt using the battery voltage measurement, and less than .002 using the meter for a differential read between the two positives and the two negatives.)

Going to tweak a few settings so at least an alarm is set, and maybe enable AGS..
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
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Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

I find my FNDC drifts a bit less 1% per each day that the Phi battery is not brought to a full state of charge. It tends to read low of the true SoC, which may be due to its fixed Peukerts Constant set to lead acid value. I run it in series with a Victron BMV700, which Phi said is more accurate with their battery, and the two are rarely off each others readings by more than 2-3%. I don't mind a 4-5% error on the FNDC so look to sync it by charging the battery fully at least once a week.

What I don't like is the grand-mal error that can occur when the FNDC "adjusts" the state of charge near the end of the charge cycle, jumping to 100% from as low as 80%. This legacy of its lead acid heritage does not serve lithium batteries well. Its also one of the reasons I have the BMV700 to "sanity check" the FNDC SoC readings.
Last edited by raysun on Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
sbrownian
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Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by sbrownian »

raysun wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:30 pm I find my FNDC drifts about 1% per each day that the Phi battery is not brought to a full state of charge. I run it in series with a Victron BMV700, which Phi said is more accurate with their battery, and the two are rarely off each others readings by more than 2-3%. I don't mind a 5-7% error on the FNDC so look to sync it by charging the battery fully at least once a week.

What I don't like is the grand-mal error that can occur when the FNDC "adjusts" the state of charge near the end of the charge cycle, jumping to 100% from as low as 80%. This legacy of its lead acid heritage does not serve lithium batteries well. Its also one of the reasons I have the BMV700 to "sanity check" the FNDC SoC readings.
RE: Victron BMV700

I'm going to recommend that the owner get one or a similar device this spring. A quick look shows bluetooth and an ethernet connection..

Does it have an internal web page that can be port mapped out for remote viewing vs having to use a cloud based app or service?
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
raysun
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Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

The BMV712 has Bluetooth which is quite useful locally. Exposes lots of data in an easy to consume manner.

There is a Smart Shunt with does the same stuff via Bluetooth without the meter face.

No ethernet that I'm aware of.

To hook up to their cloud app requires spending another $325 on their multifunction communication / control device Cerbo gx.

The 700/712 can stream data to a pc via a $30 communication cable (fancy USB).
sbrownian
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My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3
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Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by sbrownian »

I'll look into it a bit deeper today. I thought I saw a picture of a device that had an ethernet port on it..
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
sbrownian
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My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3
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Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by sbrownian »

Ah!
It was a picture of the CCGX 'color controller' that has the ethernet port on it.

Looks like you connect the BMV-700 to that via a proprietary VE.Direct cable..

They have a PILE of interesting stuff!! Including isolation transformers, galvanic isolators, etc.

Edit:
Found a VE.Direct Protocol document link. Hmm.. Perhaps a future Raspberry PI project?
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
raysun
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Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

sbrownian wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:47 am Ah!
It was a picture of the CCGX 'color controller' that has the ethernet port on it.

Looks like you connect the BMV-700 to that via a proprietary VE.Direct cable..

They have a PILE of interesting stuff!! Including isolation transformers, galvanic isolators, etc.

Edit:
Found a VE.Direct Protocol document link. Hmm.. Perhaps a future Raspberry PI project?
Yep. Better (and cheaper) than the "Color Controller) is the Venus, or the later Cerbo gx. All would be overkill to hook the BMV up to their cloud app, but if one of the other functions proved useful, then they are kind of a hacker's dream.

The Venus is a Raspberry Pi project with the typical love/hate following. The Cerbo likely is too, but with more bugs stepped on.

If I end up with $300 - 400 burning a hole in my pocket, I'll probably get a Cerbo and use the tank level monitoring to keep tabs on my water tanks, with some logic to switch between them, and text my water delivery guy when levels get low.

They have a free PC based data logging app that reads from thd ve.direct/usb bus and produces hi res graphs. Great for fast-moving battery events.
sbrownian
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Had 1200 Ahr FLA Locomotive batts
Just replaced with
2 x 300 Ah ReLion Lithium packs
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by sbrownian »

Looks like the both speak ModBus.

I wonder how much work it would be to get it to play nice with SunSpec..
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
raysun
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Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

sbrownian wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:24 am Looks like the both speak ModBus.

I wonder how much work it would be to get it to play nice with SunSpec..
WAY MORE than I'd care to pursue. 😆
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Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by JRHill »

Having installed 3 3.8 Phis last fall I spent the winter bouncing all over the place with parameters. That was a complication of charging via gen set in that time period as it was really hard to consistently hit the Days Since CPM met. Add that the inverter has the .4v steps in programming.

Now the sun is out and I'm charging with the FM80. CPM is met most every day that there is sunlight to get there. Moreover I have the Phi's full charge set at 55.4. And most every day the CPM is reset and the SOC is reset to 100% at 55.4vdc. It is pretty darned consistent. Overnight drain is consistent. Some times we stay up late and use more power (Red SOC in the morning). But the next day the CPM is met and its just like the day before.
raysun
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Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

I have a bit of a different approach. I'm currently using the charging profile specified by SimpliPhi that is essentially Bulk until 56.4V, then the minimum Absorb Time 0.1H allowed before charge termination.

I happen to have both the FM80 charge controllers and the FXR inverter chargers set to the same target voltage because if both charger types should be be running at "Absorb" i don't really care which has priority for the brief time period.

This works to achieve full charge (and Charge Parameters Met) every time I choose to run the generator to that point. Of course, if there's sufficient solar available, full charge is easily reached.

Using the 54.4V @ 2H "long Absorb" profile also served to charge the battery from solar and would reach full charge in 87 minutes of Absorb Time. I don't recollect using this profile for inverter charging, but suspect it would have worked.

Usually, if the battery is in a low SoC and needs charging from the inverter chargers, I run the generator until 80% SoC is reached, then terminate. That's plenty of capacity for us to make to through to the next day.

I guess I'm conditioned to interpret Charged Parameters Met to represent a physical full charge, and the FNDC resetting to 100% SoC at CPM being a true sync operation. I imagine CPM can be "finessed" to report 100% SoC as something less than physical full SoC, but I'm too lazy to go through the rigors of testing to discern what the resultant capacity might be.

An OB engineer said something about the FNDC early on that still rings in my ears: "You lie to it, and it will lie to you."
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Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by JRHill »

Reading your post now, Ray. I need to add that I absorb for 1hr at 55.4. OK I'll read on....

Yup, I am lying. In this case it works pretty good. I can Lie to the system and get reliable results. But I have history and I'm here to watch it and massage the input.
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Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

JRHill wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:27 am Reading your post now, Ray. I need to add that I absorb for 1hr at 55.4. OK I'll read on....
What is the net charge current at the end of 1 hour?
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Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:32 am
JRHill wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:27 am Reading your post now, Ray. I need to add that I absorb for 1hr at 55.4. OK I'll read on....
What is the net charge current at the end of 1 hour?
When experimenting previously I enabled Charge Termination in the FNDC Advanced screen. So I wouldn't see that NET current unless watching continuously. When I did this change I never finish the full 1hr absorb cycle. But the CPM is met consistently. So I've gone with what seems to work, day to day. Maybe I have the parameters set too light. So what? At least they are consistent for my purposes. End Absorb amps are "0"
raysun
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Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

JRHill wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:44 am
raysun wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:32 am
JRHill wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:27 am Reading your post now, Ray. I need to add that I absorb for 1hr at 55.4. OK I'll read on....
What is the net charge current at the end of 1 hour?
When experimenting previously I enabled Charge Termination in the FNDC Advanced screen. So I wouldn't see that NET current unless watching continuously. When I did this change I never finish the full 1hr absorb cycle. But the CPM is met consistently. So I've gone with what seems to work, day to day. Maybe I have the parameters set too light. So what? At least they are consistent for my purposes. End Absorb amps are "0"
If using Charge Termination, then the net charging amps will be at or below the Charged Return Amps value. Once full charge is reached, the charging amps decline rapidly, and will reach 0A in fairly short order.
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Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by bikermiker »

raysun wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:03 am
Using the 54.4V @ 2H "long Absorb" profile also served to charge the battery from solar and would reach full charge in 87 minutes of Absorb Time. I don't recollect using this profile for inverter charging, but suspect it would have worked.
Are you referring to the older Simpliphi profile or something else?
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REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

SimpliPhi has published various charging profiles for the 3.8 battery:
54.4 @ 1H
54.4 @ 2H
56.4 @ 0.1H

I've experimented with all three.
bikermiker
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30x Canadian Solar CS6K-300MS (9kw array)

Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by bikermiker »

raysun wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:45 pm SimpliPhi has published various charging profiles for the 3.8 battery:
54.4 @ 1H
54.4 @ 2H
56.4 @ 0.1H

I've experimented with all three.
Got it. Thanks.
raysun
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Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

The bottom two are the current profiles for inverter charging and charge controller charging respectively.

I use the last one for both.
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Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:58 ammy water delivery guy when levels get low.
Thread diversion! I have wondered about this for the HI folks. I have seen that there are tank pumps from past posts and have wondered from where the water comes? Surface collection for non-potable use of course. But potable water I've wondered about. It's not like one can drill a hole and get anything... or can ya, location dependent? Are witching folks in high demand in HI? (I don't subscribe to the 'skill')

This isn't an OB topic necessarily but water is almost as essential as a living structure. And of course the OB system probably has a role in it all. Is desalinization a thing in HI? Maybe a new post in the General Talk sub forum? As a starter, when we built, the very first thing was the well. We didn't do anything else until we knew there was clean water available. As a consequence that's how we ended up with $h1tty solar in the winter because we hit a source of sweet water close by which over time has been more important than the fuel to run the generator.

Best, JRH

I'm sure there are other stories from other areas.
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Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: FNDC SoC inaccurate after discharge Simpliphi

Post by raysun »

Water is an interesting issue here. On Hawaii Island, the surface is so porous, there is very little surface water. It all filters down into the rock until it finds a bench to impound on, or more commonly, forms a "lens' of fresh water just above the salt water level. It is now being discovered, off the coast where we live, that massive undersea streams of fresh water outflow from between layers of impervious blue rock. Trillions of gallons, they think.

The famous Black Sand Beach in our area is named Punalu'u, which in Hawaiian means "fresh water that flows under the sea". The ancients knew of the phenomenon that science is only now quantifying.

Wells are not permitted for private parties generally, nor practical for the most part. We would have to drill a well roughly 1/2 mile deep where we live.

We are on catchment, and collect rain water from our roofs. An inch of rain yields about 1000 gallons. We treat it (sanitize, mineralize, and 5 stages of filtering) so that it is potable. However, living in the high desert, we also have well water delivered. $200 for 6000 gallons of literally the best tasting water in the world. Bottling enterprises have been after Ka'u water for decades, only to get run out of the area on a rail each and every time. People here are not wealthy, but they are not stupid either.
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