Days Since Parms met

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Dnnap
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Days Since Parms met

Post by Dnnap »

Exactly what parameters have to be met for the day count to be reset?
It is my understanding these parameters are charge voltage, time and charge return amps listed in the settings/battery monitor/battery setup in the Mate3s or Flexnet DC/battery charging in OpticsRE.
For some reason after meeting these parameters the day count will not reset. Am I missing a parameter or a setting that I'm overlooking?
Charged Parameters.jpg
Flexnet battery charging.JPG
Flexnet Status.JPG
raysun
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Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by raysun »

charge voltage, time and charge return amps
Those are the factors that determine Charged Parameters Met.

What are the battery charging parameters set in the FM80?
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Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by provo »

I'm not sure if this is what you want, but take a look:

Screen Shot 2021-02-02 at 1.48.14 PM.png
Dnnap
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Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by Dnnap »

Here are the FM80 charger settings
FM80-Battery Charging.JPG
Mike Curran
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All self-designed and self-installed
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Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by Mike Curran »

Can you post a screenshot from your Optics dashboard summary chart showing a day where you think it met charge parameters? Include battery voltage, not SOC, and if you can, click on the point on the battery graph where it met them.
Today mine met them at 2:05 pm, so my screenshot looks like this:
Screenshot_20210202-165628_Samsung Internet.jpg
@raysun - I don't think the FM80 settings are relevant to achieving CPM, as long as they are set up to charge the battery. Only the FNDC settings are used to determine CPM, and it looks like his FM80 absorption voltage setpoint is high enough.

How old is your battery? I see your return amps are 2% of its amphour rating, which is good for a new battery, but maybe too low for an older one. And for an LiFePO4 battery I'm not even sure 2% is the right number.
https://smart.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45?date=2021-04-19
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
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Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by Dnnap »

provo wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:53 pm I'm not sure if this is what you want, but take a look:


Screen Shot 2021-02-02 at 1.48.14 PM.png
I'm currently still testing the system and I'm only applying very low loads of less than 200w or 1kwh per day, so the battery is achieving a 100% on a daily basis or every 2 days at worst case.
I have monitored these parameters being met on several occasions, so I'm guessing I'm either missing something or I'm not understanding the parameters correctly.
Do all three parameters have to be met or just two of the three, ie, charge voltage and time or charge voltage and end amps? What happens if the time is met before the end amps is reached or vise versa?
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Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by raysun »

The Charged Voltage should be set 0.4V lower than the lowest Absorb Voltage setting on the chargers (FM80 and inverter.)

The End Amps on the FM80 should be set to 0 (zero).

The Charged Return Amps (2% of C20) is typical of LiFePO4 batteries. Watch the end of the charge cycle to make sure its being reached. The easiest way to do that is via the Mate3s Web server.
Screenshot_20210202-120932_Chrome.jpg
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Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by raysun »

@raysun - I don't think the FM80 settings are relevant to achieving CPM, as long as they are set up to charge the battery. Only the FNDC settings are used to determine CPM, and it looks like his FM80 absorption voltage setpoint is high enough.
They are relevant if the charging parameters and the FNDC Battery Charged parameters don't align. His Absorb voltage is only 0.2V above the Charged Voltage. OB specifies 0.4V for a 48V battery.
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Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by raysun »

Do all three parameters have to be met or just two of the three, ie, charge voltage and time or charge voltage and end amps? What happens if the time is met before the end amps is reached or vise versa?
All three stars must align for the CPM to flag to rise.

The Charged Voltage (or above) and Charged Return Amps (or below) must be held for Charged Time in order for Charged Parameters Met.
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- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
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- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 microinverters

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by Mike Curran »

The End Amps on the FM80 should be set to 0 (zero).
I thought this only applied if there's more than one charger:
Screenshot_20210202-172342_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
Edit: Oops, I see the Simpliphi app note says set it to 0. My bad!
Last edited by Mike Curran on Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
https://smart.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45?date=2021-04-19
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
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Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by Dnnap »

In the first picture of the the dashboard the high voltage is 54.9v as recorded by the Flexnet. This is when the absorb stage started. The setting in the FM80 is 55v due to the deviation in the calibration of the two voltage values.
My target charge absorb voltage is 54.8V, but I set the FM80 to 55V due to the voltage reading difference. I have calibrated the voltage and 0.2V is a close as I can get them.
Optics Dashboard.jpg
The second picture shows that it is currently in floating stage and has completed the bulk and absorb stages.
Optics Dashboard-2.jpg
Mike Curran
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My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
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- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 microinverters

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by Mike Curran »

Well, the voltage sure looks like it made it there. Hmm...
https://smart.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45?date=2021-04-19
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
Dnnap
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Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by Dnnap »

raysun wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:17 pm
Do all three parameters have to be met or just two of the three, ie, charge voltage and time or charge voltage and end amps? What happens if the time is met before the end amps is reached or vise versa?
All three stars must align for the CPM to flag to rise.

The Charged Voltage (or above) and Charged Return Amps (or below) must be held for Charged Time in order for Charged Parameters Met.
Thanks! This must be the issue. Today when I was monitoring the mate3s the absorb charge time was met and the charge amps was approximately 4amps. At that point it went straight to Charged.
How can all 3 parameters be met if either the time or return amps terminate the absorb stage?
Mike Curran
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Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 microinverters

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by Mike Curran »

If your battery was truly in absorb then it also had to be sitting at the absorb voltage when the other 2 parameters were met...oops just noticed return amps not met. Maybe try raising it to 4, just to see if that resets days since CPM.
https://smart.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45?date=2021-04-19
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
Dnnap
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Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by Dnnap »

The Charged Return Amps (2% of C20) is typical of LiFePO4 batteries. Watch the end of the charge cycle to make sure its being reached. The easiest way to do that is via the Mate3s Web server.

Screenshot_20210202-120932_Chrome.jpg
The 100ah Lifepo4 battery is 3 weeks old. Yes I've been babysitting this for the past 3 weeks as I have is setup in my office. I've witnessed the absorb voltage and time being met several times, but never the return amps because I assumed the absorb charge is being terminated due to these 2 parameters being met.
If your battery was truly in absorb then it also had to be sitting at the absorb voltage when the other 2 parameters were met...
Two of the parameters were surly met (voltage and time), but how can the return amps be met if the time terminates the absorb stage before the amps fall below the return amps?
Mike Curran
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Posts: 2271
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 microinverters

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by Mike Curran »

As raysun suggested, also try setting your FM80 return amps to zero. I was mistaken earlier :oops:
The End Amps on the FM80 should be set to 0 (zero).
However, Simpliphi's app note also says
Note that in any OutBack system that includes a FNDC, the OutBack equipment will defer to the Return Amps setting in the FNDC rather than the Absorb End Amps setting in the FM100.
I would assume this also applies for systems with an FM80.
Last edited by Mike Curran on Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
https://smart.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45?date=2021-04-19
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
Dnnap
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Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by Dnnap »

Thanks guys. I will try setting my Flexnet return amps to 4amps or just above for the next charge cycle.
I was under the assumption that only two of the parameters could be met since two of them terminate the absorb stage.
The End Amps on the FM80 should be set to 0 (zero).
Will do, thanks!
Last edited by Dnnap on Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dnnap
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Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by Dnnap »

raysun wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:10 pm Watch the end of the charge cycle to make sure its being reached. The easiest way to do that is via the Mate3s Web server.

Can this screen be viewed via OpticsRE ?
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Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by raysun »

Dnnap wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:57 pm
raysun wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:10 pm Watch the end of the charge cycle to make sure its being reached. The easiest way to do that is via the Mate3s Web server.

Can this screen be viewed via OpticsRE ?
The same data are shown in OpticsRE but that screen is directly off the Mate's internal web server. I like monitoring it for fast-changing events since it updates in near-real time. OpticsRE can miss the "blink and you miss it" events.
Dnnap
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Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by Dnnap »

I changed the Flexnet return amps to 5amps and all three parameters were met successfully and "days since parms met" has be reset to 0.
Thanks for the help guys.

So, for others searching this topic all 3 parameters within the Flexnet DC "battery charging" settings must be met as described below.

- Charge Voltage - during the absorb charge stage this charge voltage must be met and maintained.
- Charge time - during the absorb charge stage the charge voltage must be maintained for the duration set under charge time.
- Charge return amps - during the absorb charge stage the charge voltage must be maintained until the charge amperage falls BELOW the charge return amps.

If the charge return amp setting it too low the three required parameters may not be achieved/met if the charge time terminates the absorb charge stage before the charge amps fall below the charge return amps.
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Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by raysun »

If the charge return amp setting it too low the three required parameters may not be achieved/met if the charge time terminates the absorb charge stage before the charge amps fall below the charge return amps.
The parameters, however, are not to be "fiddled with" just to raise the CPM flag. Rather, they should be set to factory specifications, and if CPM does not occur, investigate the reason. 2A Charged Return Amps may have been proper, and the Charged Time too short to achieve it. On the other hand, 5A may be fine for the battery in question. I'd double check with the manufacturer.

An OB engineer shared some pithy advice about the FNDC (and battery monitors in general): If you lie to them, they will lie to you.
Dnnap
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Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by Dnnap »

raysun wrote:
The parameters, however, are not to be "fiddled with" just to raise the CPM flag. Rather, they should be set to factory specifications, and if CPM does not occur, investigate the reason. 2A Charged Return Amps may have been proper, and the Charged Time too short to achieve it. On the other hand, 5A may be fine for the battery in question. I'd double check with the manufacturer.

An OB engineer shared some pithy advice about the FNDC (and battery monitors in general): If you lie to them, they will lie to you.
Yes, I completely agree, but I can't rely on the manufactures data since some pertinent information is not available from the Chinese manufacture or their recommendations seem way off or conflicting. For example, the manual that came with the lifepo4 recommends the absorb voltage to be 58.4V and lists two different charge currents. I'd rather not trust their data.
I'm still testing to determine the best charge voltage as to not fully charge to battery or hold the battery at 100% for too long.
The Flexnet and BMS battery voltage readings are the same when tested with a Fluke 23 without loads, but so far when charging to 54.8V for 0.3 hours (18 minutes) the battery internal BMS quickly falls to 94%-95% when charge is complete although the Flexnet reads 100%. This indicates I still have some headroom for my absorb time. I could try to increase the charge time or revert to the charge until full method with 56.6V at 0.1h charge time. Since I don't rely on the system for running loads at this time I currently have the advantage to test with zero loads if needed. This will allow me to fine tune the charge settings.
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Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by raysun »

I'm still testing to determine the best charge voltage as to not fully charge to battery or hold the battery at 100% for too long.
IME, the battery needs to be fully charged periodically in order to sync the battery monitor. All monitors drift over time, so eventually report substantially inaccurate readings. By my testing, the FNDC in my system drifts about 1% a day. I usually try for a full charge once a week if the sun doesn't provide a more frequent full charge.

I'm with you, as for not holding the battery at 100% SoC any longer than necessary. To that end, I use a float voltage lower than that recommended by my battery manufacturer. By experiment, I arrived at a Float voltage that drains 2-4AH off my 450AH battery before Float engages, then holds the battery to a small discharge for the Float cycle. Tgpically my battery will have discharged 9AH (2%) over the duration of Float.

On a full charge cycle, my charge settings hold the battery at 100% SoC for no more than 60 seconds.
Mike Curran
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Posts: 2271
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS. Tigo ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input from 14 Talesun 275W, Enphase M215 microinverters

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by Mike Curran »

IME, the battery needs to be fully charged periodically in order to sync the battery monitor.
Right on, Raysun. Outback's Mark Walters says the same thing in this thread:viewtopic.php?f=47&t=14975&p=71380#p71380
https://smart.tigoenergy.com/p/pZXn7SZQyO45?date=2021-04-19
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
raysun
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Posts: 4540
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Days Since Parms met

Post by raysun »

I've found the FNDC goes through a "learning" period, and that the lesson its taught should be true. Its why I advocate, as Mark says: "jamming it to the stops" when charging.

My FNDC tracks predictably, and if i were to go through the nails-across-the-blackboard excersize of correcting for Peukerts, I'd be able to get very close to spot-on. I'm not that obsessed, however, and the practical solution is simply a full charge at reasonable intervals.
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