It's all fun and games..

A place to post images and descriptions of your OutBack Power System

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raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 4624
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun »

Grrr... I've lost my reply twice. I'm getting frustrated with the forum editor.
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 4624
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun »

quote=JRHill post_id=77029 time=1603653667 user_id=5976]
I've scanned your posts and haven't seen anything addressing battery recharge rates vs array input. So these batteries are not substantially affected by a lower amperage recharge compared to the overall size of the bank? I.E., occasional heavy draw downs and heavy recharges are not a health issue like they are with FLA? Or is yet to be determined?

Best,
Jim
[/quote]

I have been tracking charging, and when I have enough repeatable data, I'll post something.

A few learnings and early impressions:

• Lithium charges far more easily than FLA. As long as there is enough charge to get over the 3.3VPC barrier, lithium will happily accept any charge rate up to its maximum (usually C/2). There's no stratified electrolyte to "stir up" or a chemical reaction to reverse, just ions to shuttle from cathode to anode. Charging seems very linear.

• Lithium is happiest at partial state of charge. The biggest "cognitive change" is getting past thinking the battery needs be at full charge for best health and longevity. In fact, with lithium its the opposite. Achieving, and holding, 100% SoC is hard on the battery. In charging, the lithium ions essentially plate the anode. At 100% SoC, the ions start piling up, at times unevenly, creating sharp spikes called dendrites. As dendrites build, they can pierce the separator membrane, degrading the cell. I am developing sort of a reverse phobia - being disappointed when the battery is fully charged. Maybe winter will help. We're looking at 10 days of clouds coming up. I'll be happy if the battery stays above 20% SoC, but will be equally happy if it doesn't reach 100%.

• Float is like charging to 100%, but worse. Getting a lithium battery to 100% SoC is bad enough, holding it at 100% is worse. Yesterday, i played a bit with the Float voltage, decreasing it by 0.1 until it seemed like the battery had bled off a couple of AH, and maintained a < 100% SoC. 53.5V seemed the magic number. We'll see more results today.

• Given all the above, my battery and solar array are too large for our needs on many days. Seriously. The 450AH battery provides 360AH of useable capacity. We're lucky if we burn off 160AH overnight. The next day, if the weather is at all decent, the battery is fully recharged well before noon. I'll see if my opinion changes over time.
JRHill
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:12 am
My RE system: VFXR3648, FM80, 3k panels, Mate3s, FNDC, 4ea 3.8 PHIs. EU7000is AGS.
Location: PNW
Contact:

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by JRHill »

OK, thank you.
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 4624
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun »

My old AGM battery was 350AH and had a maximum charge rate of 106A. (2x53A)

The new battery is 450AH and has a maximum charge rate of 225A. (6x37.5A)

I have a very slightly larger array (6.5kW vs 5.9kW), but no need to throttle PV output. (I have set Global Charge Control to 225A in case I decide to run all four chargers and get maximum output.)

Bottom line is the lithium battery charges noticeably more efficiently, and there is no real need for a complete charge.

I expect in cloudy weather where the inverter chargers may be employed, that I may often charge "just enough" to get through to the next day. With our current consumption pattern, the battery can go a 1.5 days with no charging from 100% SoC.
sodamo
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1154
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by sodamo »

Charging just enough to get through via generator is a good strategy. Discussed it with my installer. Agreed it was better for a short run in hopes of sun taking over than the batteries being too charged when the sun does shine, even if it meant multiple short runs. Currently I’m using Absorb 54 v for .5 hours. Fortunately, I don’t have a lot of experience, not having need for generator run since Jan.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com
MilesOutBack
Forum Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:31 pm
My RE system: Flexmax60 controller - 9x255 watt PV (2295 watts)
Flexmax60 controller - 4x170 and 8x80 watt PV (1320 watts)
VFXR3048E inverter.
Mate3s.
4 point Hub.

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by MilesOutBack »

I have an inverter welder. Can I run it safely off the batteries? Will it cause damage? The label on the bottom says this:
Rossi Model CT-416

20A/20.8V. - 160A/26.4V

| X. 60%. 100%
U o 58v.| I2. 160A. 135A
| U2. 26.4V. 25.2V
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 4624
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun »

MilesOutBack wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:59 pm I have an inverter welder. Can I run it safely off the batteries? Will it cause damage? The label on the bottom says this:
Rossi Model CT-416

20A/20.8V. - 160A/26.4V

| X. 60%. 100%
U o 58v.| I2. 160A. 135A
| U2. 26.4V. 25.2V
That unit looks like it wants 240V input at 8kVA, so would take the full output of a GS8048 to power. 4 SimpliPhi 3.8-48s would run it for about an hour before they were exhausted.
MilesOutBack
Forum Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:31 pm
My RE system: Flexmax60 controller - 9x255 watt PV (2295 watts)
Flexmax60 controller - 4x170 and 8x80 watt PV (1320 watts)
VFXR3048E inverter.
Mate3s.
4 point Hub.

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by MilesOutBack »

Thanks Raysun. I gather the the answer would be ‘no’ as I have a VXFR3048E inverter. I just want to so some simple repair welding using the stick. Worried I would damage the batteries but it might be the inverter I am concerned for.
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 4624
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by raysun »

Yes, the 120V 3.6kVA output from the inverter won't drive the 240V 8kVA demand of the welder.

Probably best to get a 240V 8kVA gas generator if off-grid, or use line power if on grid.
JRHill
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:12 am
My RE system: VFXR3648, FM80, 3k panels, Mate3s, FNDC, 4ea 3.8 PHIs. EU7000is AGS.
Location: PNW
Contact:

Re: It's all fun and games..

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:22 pm Yes, the 120V 3.6kVA output from the inverter won't drive the 240V 8kVA demand of the welder.

Probably best to get a 240V 8kVA gas generator if off-grid, or use line power if on grid.
I would NEVER weld with any power source other than a generator in an off grid system. Its just too risky considering the expensive components. Sure, they may handle it just fine but there's a chance that one time the surges may cause a problem. This is one case where a non-inverter generator is best suited to the task. It a heck of a lot easier to address a generator problem than one in your inverter.
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