Using my excess solar FX2024

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culmore
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Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by culmore »

I have a very standard solar system in my main house , Inverter FX2024, Flexmax 60 , battery and solar panels.

My store room is connected to the mains electricity provider kenya power. From the store room I feed two cottages and my main house. I use HBX mode make sure the batteries don't drop too low. Can I "sell/transfer" my excess solar energy to two cottages via the FX2024. Or do I need to add "some device" in my store room to stop the electricity flowing back to the grid, which will not pay me. Or some other solution....

Thanks for reading.
Mike Curran
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My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
[***2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007-2020)]
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, ***replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by Mike Curran »

I'm no expert on HBX, but this video https://youtu.be/hBxCwdDScTM seems to imply that HBX mode prevents selling back to grid.

That being the case, seems like all you need do is connect your fx output to your cottage circuits, IF it is capable of supporting 100% of all your loads via grid pass-thru (current limitation). Note if you do this you must disconnect the direct grid connection to your cottages - your fx will not like seeing the grid on both its input AND its output sides.

Hopefully this will get the discussion going, especially since, again, I may not understand HBX operation. - Mike
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
culmore
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Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by culmore »

Thanks Mike. And if I turn off hbx mode?

My inverter is not capable of supporting the two cottages and my house . It’s only 2000watts .
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Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by provo »

culmore wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:43 am
And if I turn off hbx mode?
My inverter is not capable of supporting the two cottages and my house . It’s only 2000watts .
You might look into Load Grid Transfer instead of HBX. LGX flips over to grid whenever total loads exceed a settable value in kW. The connection delay can be as short as 1 sec.

Later edit: The power from grid will be fed through the inverter, of course, so total loads would still be limited to the feed-through maximum of your inverter.
culmore
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Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by culmore »

Load Grid Transfer that’s an interesting one . I will check that thanks provo.

But what I really want is in the other direction, I want to “sell/ transfer” my excess electricity from my main house with the solar system back to the store room and cottages. And I’m asking if I need any specials hardware in my store to facilitate this. Also I don’t want that electricity to go back to the grid.
provo
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My RE system: Sixteen Evergreen EC-120
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FNDC and Trimetric
Honda EU3000is generator
Location: Sierra foothills

Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by provo »

culmore wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:35 am
But what I really want is in the other direction, I want to “sell/ transfer” my excess electricity from my main house with the solar system back to the store room and cottages. And I’m asking if I need any specials hardware in my store to facilitate this. Also I don’t want that electricity to go back to the grid.
It seems to me the other cottages would need some kind of relay or hand-operated transfer switch that would switch their load center off of the grid and connect it to the output of your inverter. Others here may have better ideas.
raysun
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Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by raysun »

culmore wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:35 am Load Grid Transfer that’s an interesting one . I will check that thanks provo.

But what I really want is in the other direction, I want to “sell/ transfer” my excess electricity from my main house with the solar system back to the store room and cottages. And I’m asking if I need any specials hardware in my store to facilitate this. Also I don’t want that electricity to go back to the grid.
I don't think the functionality desired is enabled in the FX series inverters. The later FXR and Radian models have an "Offset" function that enables the inverter to "sell to the loads".

The AC output of the FX inverter cannot be blended with grid power. The AC input of the FX inverter does not support selling to grid or loads, to my understanding.
Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1893
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
[***2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007-2020)]
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, ***replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by Mike Curran »

culmore wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:43 am Thanks Mike. And if I turn off hbx mode?

My inverter is not capable of supporting the two cottages and my house . It’s only 2000watts .
It doesn't need to be. The 2000 watt rating is for max from the batteries. All it needs to be able to do is pass thru the required grid current when it's needed, and in the daytime your excess solar will contribute also, IIUC. Not sure what the pass-thru amp rating is for your inverter... - Mike

Edit - see my next post, I understand now.
Last edited by Mike Curran on Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1893
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
[***2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007-2020)]
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, ***replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by Mike Curran »

The AC output of the FX inverter cannot be blended with grid power. The AC input of the FX inverter does not support selling to grid or loads, to my understanding.
Raysun - The FX will support AC loads. Someday you'll have to expound on the offset function, as my new VFXR inverters have it and the writeup in the manual isn't very clear to me. Also, I believe when using HBX his system is prevented from selling to grid, but the E series int'l models are only designed for generator AC input, so I guess now I see why he can't just use his inverter's pass thru function. Don't know what the OP has....
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
raysun
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Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
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Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by raysun »

I *think* we might be referring to different capabilities, but I might be misreading the thread.

I was thinking the ask is steering excess PV harvest via the inverter to the auxiliary buildings that are normally grid-supplied. (This scenario is addressed in the FXR grid interactive inverters via the Offset parameters.)

AFIK, the FX series will generate AC, of course, and accept grid on AC IN to feed to loads (and charging), but the FX cannot "Sell" AC, either to grid or to loads.

The "Sell to the Loads" function would work with an FXR class, I believe, by connecting the auxiliary houses' grid feed to the inverter AC IN. When the battery is charged, and in the instances AC OUT loads are satisfied, excess PV harvest can be backfed to AC IN and used to offset grid consumption.
culmore
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Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by culmore »

raysun wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:32 pm I *think* we might be referring to different capabilities, but I might be misreading the thread.

I was thinking the ask is steering excess PV harvest via the inverter to the auxiliary buildings that are normally grid-supplied. (This scenario is addressed in the FXR grid interactive inverters via the Offset parameters.)

AFIK, the FX series will generate AC, of course, and accept grid on AC IN to feed to loads (and charging), but the FX cannot "Sell" AC, either to grid or to loads.

The "Sell to the Loads" function would work with an FXR class, I believe, by connecting the auxiliary houses' grid feed to the inverter AC IN. When the battery is charged, and in the instances AC OUT loads are satisfied, excess PV harvest can be backfed to AC IN and used to offset grid consumption.
That is it Raysun!!! thats my question. Mind you the replies are really helping me to learn a lot!!!!! I should not have mentioned hbx maybe I confused things , anyways.

Lets say I trade in my FX and buy an FXR. When "selling / blending" the excess electricity back to the store room and therefore the cottage, how can I stop the grid also getting my electricity? Is there equipment that I need to add to stop the electricity going to the grid?
raysun
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Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by raysun »

culmore wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:03 pm
raysun wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:32 pm I *think* we might be referring to different capabilities, but I might be misreading the thread.

I was thinking the ask is steering excess PV harvest via the inverter to the auxiliary buildings that are normally grid-supplied. (This scenario is addressed in the FXR grid interactive inverters via the Offset parameters.)

AFIK, the FX series will generate AC, of course, and accept grid on AC IN to feed to loads (and charging), but the FX cannot "Sell" AC, either to grid or to loads.

The "Sell to the Loads" function would work with an FXR class, I believe, by connecting the auxiliary houses' grid feed to the inverter AC IN. When the battery is charged, and in the instances AC OUT loads are satisfied, excess PV harvest can be backfed to AC IN and used to offset grid consumption.
That is it Raysun!!! thats my question. Mind you the replies are really helping me to learn a lot!!!!! I should not have mentioned hbx maybe I confused things , anyways.

Lets say I trade in my FX and buy an FXR. When "selling / blending" the excess electricity back to the store room and therefore the cottage, how can I stop the grid also getting my electricity? Is there equipment that I need to add to stop the electricity going to the grid?
I'm an off-grid guy strictly, so I'm going by what I've learned by reading. The FXR (2024e) has the "smarts" to keep the juice strictly in-house.

There may be "tweaks" not detailed in this thread yet, but the path is there. You can do further research on this forum. You can also call the Outback sales team to get guidance before putting down any money.

The FXR embodies 15 years of added practical application in its firmware. The logic it supports for off-grid/on-grid blending, plus advanced battery support, plus advanced backup generator support, makes it a very functional upgrade. Plus a new inverter comes with a new warranty.

Plus well maintained FX inverters have excellent resale value.

BTW, HBX didn't confuse me. I don't know a thing about it. 😉
culmore
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Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by culmore »

raysun wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:23 pm
culmore wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:03 pm
raysun wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:32 pm I *think* we might be referring to different capabilities, but I might be misreading the thread.

I was thinking the ask is steering excess PV harvest via the inverter to the auxiliary buildings that are normally grid-supplied. (This scenario is addressed in the FXR grid interactive inverters via the Offset parameters.)

AFIK, the FX series will generate AC, of course, and accept grid on AC IN to feed to loads (and charging), but the FX cannot "Sell" AC, either to grid or to loads.

The "Sell to the Loads" function would work with an FXR class, I believe, by connecting the auxiliary houses' grid feed to the inverter AC IN. When the battery is charged, and in the instances AC OUT loads are satisfied, excess PV harvest can be backfed to AC IN and used to offset grid consumption.
That is it Raysun!!! thats my question. Mind you the replies are really helping me to learn a lot!!!!! I should not have mentioned hbx maybe I confused things , anyways.

Lets say I trade in my FX and buy an FXR. When "selling / blending" the excess electricity back to the store room and therefore the cottage, how can I stop the grid also getting my electricity? Is there equipment that I need to add to stop the electricity going to the grid?
I'm an off-grid guy strictly, so I'm going by what I've learned by reading. The FXR (2024e) has the "smarts" to keep the juice strictly in-house.

There may be "tweaks" not detailed in this thread yet, but the path is there. You can do further research on this forum. You can also call the Outback sales team to get guidance before putting down any money.

The FXR embodies 15 years of added practical application in its firmware. The logic it supports for off-grid/on-grid blending, plus advanced battery support, plus advanced backup generator support, makes it a very functional upgrade. Plus a new inverter comes with a new warranty.

Plus well maintained FX inverters have excellent resale value.

BTW, HBX didn't confuse me. I don't know a thing about it. 😉
When electricity flows back to the store room and cottages from the FXR will it not also flow back to kenya Power? How do I stop that?

This is my current setup, I am no expert.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0fKAW3B ... sW6X_sIO6w
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Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by SandyP »

culmore wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:14 am When electricity flows back to the store room and cottages from the FXR will it not also flow back to kenya Power? How do I stop that?
I assumed on all grid connected outback systems (depending on settings) the solar power output from the charge controllers was "use it or lose it"
So it either goes to loads and/or to charging the battery or is "lost" to the grid or "lost" when the charge controller(s) decrease their output as there is no "demand" for their output.
culmore
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Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by culmore »

SandyP wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:11 am
culmore wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:14 am When electricity flows back to the store room and cottages from the FXR will it not also flow back to kenya Power? How do I stop that?
I assumed on all grid connected outback systems (depending on settings) the solar power output from the charge controllers was "use it or lose it"
So it either goes to loads and/or to charging the battery or is "lost" to the grid or "lost" when the charge controller(s) decrease their output as there is no "demand" for their output.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0fKAW3B ... sW6X_sIO6w

See the diagram . Lost/sold to the cottages. But not to the grid is what I want. But maybe I am dreaming . Or I need to add a device in the store
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Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by fcwlp »

Mike Curran wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:30 am That being the case, seems like all you need do is connect your fx output to your cottage circuits, IF it is capable of supporting 100% of all your loads via grid pass-thru (current limitation). Note if you do this you must disconnect the direct grid connection to your cottages - your fx will not like seeing the grid on both its input AND its output sides.
Mike had the correct answer in the first response. Inverter functions of HBX and offset have nothing to do with what you are trying to accomplish.

You will need to connect the cottages to your line labeled load by running another power line back to the store room. At the store room you should put in a manual transfer switch that will allow the powering of the cottages either from the grid or the inverter's load output. Using a mechanical transfer switch, guarantees that you will never put grid power into the inverter's load output, as that will destroy the inverter. Not sure how the store room is wired but you may also need a separate load panel.

If the cottages and your house loads can be supplied by the inverter's pass through of 60A from the grid you may be able to eliminate the transfer switch by permanently disconnecting the cottages from the grid. Not sure what size of wire you have running to the house from the store room but if you want to deliver 20A to the cottages from the inverter, with 8 AWG Cu (not sure how you measure wire sizes in Kenya) you will have ~2.7% voltage drop which is acceptable.
raysun
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Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
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Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by raysun »

fcwlp wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:24 am
Mike Curran wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:30 am That being the case, seems like all you need do is connect your fx output to your cottage circuits, IF it is capable of supporting 100% of all your loads via grid pass-thru (current limitation). Note if you do this you must disconnect the direct grid connection to your cottages - your fx will not like seeing the grid on both its input AND its output sides.
Mike had the correct answer in the first response. Inverter functions of HBX and offset have nothing to do with what you are trying to accomplish.

You will need to connect the cottages to your line labeled load by running another power line back to the store room. At the store room you should put in a manual transfer switch that will allow the powering of the cottages either from the grid or the inverter's load output. Using a mechanical transfer switch, guarantees that you will never put grid power into the inverter's load output, as that will destroy the inverter. Not sure how the store room is wired but you may also need a separate load panel.

If the cottages and your house loads can be supplied by the inverter's pass through of 60A from the grid you may be able to eliminate the transfer switch by permanently disconnecting the cottages from the grid. Not sure what size of wire you have running to the house from the store room but if you want to deliver 20A to the cottages from the inverter, with 8 AWG Cu (not sure how you measure wire sizes in Kenya) you will have ~2.7% voltage drop which is acceptable.
This from an installer experienced in the particular architecture. I'd defer to this guidance.
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Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by culmore »

raysun wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:30 am
fcwlp wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:24 am
Mike Curran wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:30 am That being the case,...
Mike had the correct answer in the first response. Inverter functions of HBX and offset have nothing to do with what you are trying to accomplish.

This from an installer experienced in the particular architecture. I'd defer to this guidance.
I get this design... it was not what I was trying to do but my idea was likely fantasy ..

Thanks so much for the replies , I have learned much and am most grateful for the support .
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Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by raysun »

@fcwlp

What would happen, in a grid hybrid scenario, if there were loads on the panel between the grid and inverter AC IN? (Figure 3).
Screenshot_20201122-085343_Office.jpg
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I install and maintain grid-tied and off-grid systems in my area and consult on solar system design/operation.
Location: 80 miles NE of Phoenix at 5500'

Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by fcwlp »

Three scenarios, for load panel between grid and inverter.
- If not selling back, the load panel is only supplied by the grid.
- If selling back and grid is up, the load panel is supplied by inverter and/or grid.
- If selling back and grid is down, the load panel is dead to protect the grid workers.
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Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by raysun »

fcwlp wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:27 am Three scenarios, for load panel between grid and inverter.
- If not selling back, the load panel is only supplied by the grid.
- If selling back and grid is up, the load panel is supplied by inverter and/or grid.
- If selling back and grid is down, the load panel is dead to protect the grid workers.
Scenarios 2 and 3 only apply to FXR class inverters. The FX class is not grid interactive.

In the 2nd scenario ("grid-tied") - the connection would require power company approval. The "selling to the grid" can power loads on the "main" panel. If the amount of current being "sold" is less than the main panel loads consume, there would be no current flowing to the meter.
Screenshot_20201122-093804_Office.jpg
From the FXR international operator's manual.
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Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by raysun »

Screenshot_20201122-142542_Chrome.jpg
Confirming what was described, and looking at the sketch, it appears grid power is extended to all buildings, including the House, where the inverter system is installed.

Does the grid service enter the property into a single load panel? (There's one meter and one disconnect that can be opened which cuts off all power to the property?)

Are there load sub panels in the Cottages?

There is a load panel in the House fed by the AC OUT of the inverter, correct?

Is the grid power connected to the AC IN on the inverter? (Looks like it in the sketch.)
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I install and maintain grid-tied and off-grid systems in my area and consult on solar system design/operation.
Location: 80 miles NE of Phoenix at 5500'

Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by fcwlp »

raysun wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:43 am Scenarios 2 and 3 only apply to FXR class inverters. The FX class is not grid interactive.
But the picture showed a Radian. :grin: I know the GVFX is grid-interactive and my FX manual says it is can sell. I have not worked on grid-tied FX, so can not confirm.
raysun wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:43 am
In the 2nd scenario ("grid-tied") - the connection would require power company approval. The "selling to the grid" can power loads on the "main" panel. If the amount of current being "sold" is less than the main panel loads consume, there would be no current flowing to the meter.
But that would require ability to sense the current and control the output of the inverter. The FXR and Radian can not do this, not sure about the Skybox but I don't recall that capability.
culmore
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Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by culmore »

raysun wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:36 pm Screenshot_20201122-142542_Chrome.jpg
Confirming what was described, and looking at the sketch, it appears grid power is extended to all buildings, including the House, where the inverter system is installed. YES

Does the grid service enter the property into a single load panel? (There's one meter and one disconnect that can be opened which cuts off all power to the property?) YES

Are there load sub panels in the Cottages? yES

There is a load panel in the House fed by the AC OUT of the inverter, correct? YES

Is the grid power connected to the AC IN on the inverter? (Looks like it in the sketch.) YES
Yes to all. A load sub panel is called a consumer unit here I think, it has two main rails with circuit breakers.
culmore
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Re: Using my excess solar FX2024

Post by culmore »

fcwlp wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:51 pm
raysun wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:43 am Scenarios 2 and 3 only apply to FXR class inverters. The FX class is not grid interactive.
But the picture showed a Radian. :grin: I know the GVFX is grid-interactive and my FX manual says it is can sell. I have not worked on grid-tied FX, so can not confirm.
raysun wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:43 am
In the 2nd scenario ("grid-tied") - the connection would require power company approval. The "selling to the grid" can power loads on the "main" panel. If the amount of current being "sold" is less than the main panel loads consume, there would be no current flowing to the meter.
But that would require ability to sense the current and control the output of the inverter. The FXR and Radian can not do this, not sure about the Skybox but I don't recall that capability.
I don’t mind selling the fx2024 and buying a new inverter.

Kenya power will likely not allow me to sell to them. So whatever goes to the grid is wasted.
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