Outback AC brkr mounting orientation

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Mike Curran
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My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
[***2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007-2020)]
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, ***replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Outback AC brkr mounting orientation

Post by Mike Curran »

I bought an Outback 15A breaker, OBB-15-150VDC120VAC-PNL, to install in one of the rectangular knockouts in the "ACA" ("AC Manifold") mounted on the side of one of my GVFX's to supply a UPS outlet and fluorescent light near my inverters.

The breaker has a notation saying it should be mounted vertically. With the way my inverters are mounted, the knockout holes in the ACA are horizontal. Will the breaker still work if it's mounted horizontally?

Thanks for any replies... - Mike
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
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Bowsandarrows
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Re: Outback AC brkr mounting orientation

Post by Bowsandarrows »

Is that notation "this side up"? I think this is so you can install all the breakers with the on in the up position, as these breakers can be mounted either way.

I dont know why it would need to be orintated vertically. Perhaps someone can shed some light on this if there is a reason. :grin:
Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1893
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
[***2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007-2020)]
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, ***replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Outback AC brkr mounting orientation

Post by Mike Curran »

Well, I went ahead and mounted it horizontally and now the notice is inaccessible and I don't remember the exact wording, except that I'm positive the word "vertical" was in there, something like "mount in vertical panel"... :?: The mounting screws are offset so that if it is mounted in the vertical panel of my PSDC, "on" would be up as you've noted. With my horizontal orientation, there's still only one way to mount it: "on" is with the breaker handle pointed toward me; "off" is away.

Thanks. I guess I'll see if it works or not :!:
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
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Bowsandarrows
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My RE system: 9) 218 watt Mitsubishi PV, FX3524 Outback, FM-80 CC, AirX-400 "makes a great weather vane", Diesel 8KW Northern-lights generator, 16 Surrette S-530 batteries. System operating in AGS mode. Best of all no Utility company hounding me for payment. Worked for the ever present utility company for 25 years, have learned a hard lesson.
Location: North West (Beaverlodge), Alberta, Canada
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Re: Outback AC brkr mounting orientation

Post by Bowsandarrows »

I looked on some of the breakers that I have in stock, did not find any such markings, as to orintation
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tallgirl
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Re: Outback AC brkr mounting orientation

Post by tallgirl »

Bowsandarrows wrote:I looked on some of the breakers that I have in stock, did not find any such markings, as to orintation
"Down" is always "Off" on disconnects and breakers.
Julie in Texas

I ride bicycles. A lot.
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Bowsandarrows
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My RE system: 9) 218 watt Mitsubishi PV, FX3524 Outback, FM-80 CC, AirX-400 "makes a great weather vane", Diesel 8KW Northern-lights generator, 16 Surrette S-530 batteries. System operating in AGS mode. Best of all no Utility company hounding me for payment. Worked for the ever present utility company for 25 years, have learned a hard lesson.
Location: North West (Beaverlodge), Alberta, Canada
Contact:

Re: Outback AC brkr mounting orientation

Post by Bowsandarrows »

tallgirl wrote:
Bowsandarrows wrote:I looked on some of the breakers that I have in stock, did not find any such markings, as to orintation
"Down" is always "Off" on disconnects and breakers.
Julie the question asked was if the breaker needed to be mounted vertically, or horizontally, nothing to do with the off position
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tallgirl
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Re: Outback AC brkr mounting orientation

Post by tallgirl »

Bowsandarrows wrote:
tallgirl wrote:
Bowsandarrows wrote:I looked on some of the breakers that I have in stock, did not find any such markings, as to orintation
"Down" is always "Off" on disconnects and breakers.
Julie the question asked was if the breaker needed to be mounted vertically, or horizontally, nothing to do with the off position
I was responding to the comment about markings. A breaker which can be mounted horizontally can be put on either side, so long as "Off" is towards the center in a panel with two columns of breakers. When mounted vertically, "Off" is always "Down".

And I must confess my bogglement that the breaker is marked for vertical installation. That's certainly not the case for any AC breakers I've ever worked with.
Julie in Texas

I ride bicycles. A lot.
jnh
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Re: Outback AC brkr mounting orientation

Post by jnh »

tallgirl wrote:
Bowsandarrows wrote:I looked on some of the breakers that I have in stock, did not find any such markings, as to orintation
"Down" is always "Off" on disconnects and breakers.
Is this a code requirement? Perhaps one recently added? The main breaker in my house panel is oriented for Down=ON, Up=OFF, but clearly labeled this way on both the breaker itself (in lettering rightside up on one side, upside down on the other, so the manufacturer must have intended it to go either way) and a label next to it. It's passed inspection several times without even a comment about the directions.

I do remember seeing one huge 3-ph, 4160V breaker in a commercial building with a "this side must be up!" warning on it. Maybe its trip mechanism depended on an internal counterweight or something. That beast looked like it must have weighed at least 300 lb.
Mike Curran
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Posts: 1893
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
[***2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007-2020)]
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, ***replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Outback AC brkr mounting orientation

Post by Mike Curran »

Some clarification (I hope :???: ): Note that the way I've mounted the breaker, the handle is on the top of the enclosure, not on the front as you would expect a breaker to be mounted in a breaker panel. It is not mounted "sideways" (off position towards the center as Julie points out). I interpreted the "mount in vertical panel" instruction to mean it must be mounted on the vertical face of a breaker panel. I've mounted it on a horizontal face. Just wanted to know if it'll still work this way...so far, so good.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
SteveHiggins
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Re: Outback AC brkr mounting orientation

Post by SteveHiggins »

All of our Breaker are Magnetic-hydraulic. If you mount them on their backs they will not work properly. Preferably they are mounted on vertically, but they can be mounted on their side.
Steve Higgins
Technical Services Director- Surrette Battery Company

\
Mike Curran
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Posts: 1893
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
[***2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007-2020)]
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, ***replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Outback AC brkr mounting orientation

Post by Mike Curran »

Thanks, Steve. Not exactly the answer I was looking for, but... Can you give me some clarification? Will the breaker trip if it experiences an overcurrent condition?

Also, I thought the top openings in the ACA enclosures were meant for mounting breakers this way. Is there another breaker that would fit and work?

Thanks again.
SteveHiggins
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Re: Outback AC brkr mounting orientation

Post by SteveHiggins »

If the breaker is on it's back it will not trip or will cause nuisance tripping. Magnetic Hydraulic breakers need to be installed as in the FW500 or 1000 or Horizontally.

If you look at the breaker and the handle is pointed to the floor or ceiling the breaker will not work.
Steve Higgins
Technical Services Director- Surrette Battery Company

\
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tallgirl
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Re: Outback AC brkr mounting orientation

Post by tallgirl »

jnh wrote:
tallgirl wrote:
Bowsandarrows wrote:I looked on some of the breakers that I have in stock, did not find any such markings, as to orintation
"Down" is always "Off" on disconnects and breakers.
Is this a code requirement? Perhaps one recently added?
I believe it's a Code requirement, though I'd have to get out my 2008 NEC and dig around. There are a lot of "it must be done that way!" things that aren't in the Code, so this could be one of them.

Some of the conventions that aren't Code are things that are done to make life easier for other electricians, or emergency personnel. I hate to admit I don't look for breaker markings before turning off a panel, but I usually just swat all the "Up" breakers "Down".

Keep in mind that someone else may want to power down that panel -- like, if the dwelling catches fire and the nice fire fighters don't want to be electrocuted. So, whatever you do, you should have that in mind and not do something so out of the ordinary that someone gets killed. Dead people are a bad idea, and although the electric chair isn't used that much anymore, we should remember that it was pretty effective.
Julie in Texas

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Re: Outback AC brkr mounting orientation

Post by Solarphil »

A flash to the past to update an old post:
our breakers are magnetic/hydraulic, as are most DC breakers. As such, orientation is important, but the reasons are slightly different than what you guessed. When the breaker is oriented vertically or horizontally, then the trip curves are accurate -- the breaker will trip at the rated time and current level for the fault condition. If the breaker is "on it's back" with the handle pointing towards the sky, it will trip a little early, a little under rated current. In other words, you'll be more likely to experience a nuisance trip. However, and this is what you want to avoid, if the breaker is installed with the handle pointing towards the ground it will be desensitized, it will take more current to trip, and that would be a big safety hazard.

So, to get the desired and rated performance, you'd mount it either vertically or horizontally. The breakers are rated to be installed either vertically or horizontally.

BTW, if the breaker says NO, then you've got it upside down. (dad electrician humor)
Philip Undercuffler
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OutBack Power Technologies
Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1893
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
[***2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007-2020)]
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, ***replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Outback AC brkr mounting orientation

Post by Mike Curran »

Hoorah!! Despite what this thread from almost 10 years ago said, I left my horizontally mounted AC breaker mounted as is. Taking my chances, so to speak. Never had any nuisance trips. Not that there was much load on this circuit - an 80W fluorescent fixture, a computer/monitor, and more recently, my Tigo "hub".
1521071055743-370197816.jpg
Now I can breathe a sigh of relief. Thanks, Phil!

PS The FX-ACA conduit adapter in which this breaker is mounted was advertised by Outback as "may also be used for mounting breakers and/or AC outlets through the knockouts provided"(my emphasis). I had faith in you, Outback!
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1893
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
[***2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007-2020)]
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, ***replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: Outback AC brkr mounting orientation

Post by Mike Curran »

Finally had a chance to take a picture of this breaker while replacing my GVFX's. Check it out:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MLRVVv ... p=drivesdk

Again, file too large.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
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Re: Outback AC brkr mounting orientation

Post by provo »

Mike Curran wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:35 pm Finally had a chance to take a picture of this breaker while replacing my GVFX's. Check it out:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MLRVVv ... p=drivesdk

Again, file too large.

"Mount on Vertical Surface" -- I assume that means the panel it's mounted in shouldn't be parallel to the ground, for convection maybe?
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