Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Discussion about OutBack Inverters in Off Grid Applications

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raysun
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by raysun »

We are rowing the same boat. We all want systems that are as "intervention-free" as possible. There are undeniable quirks that require work-arounds. I've never seen it any other way. I had them mostly hammered out in the FX class. The FXRs seem to have some additional ones.

I'm wrestling with two of them as we speak.

The crack about programmers is a story for another time. Its a good one.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

JRHill wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:16 pm
jtzako wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:09 pmThe downside, is, Generator mode causes the house to briefly lose power when it switches off generator power and onto battery power.
There is another downside, at least for me. With the VFXR in generator mode I could only get 17aac for charging the batteries so I was having at least a 10% reduction in usage of the genset. It was suggested to use Support. Yup, it went to 19-20aac immediately after. Generator power quality was not an issue but there is definitely some derating in generator mode. Again, for me.

But whether in generator mode or support I have not experienced the momentary power loss when dropping the genset. At least, for me.(don't cha just hate the 'for me' qualifier? I sure do.)
As a test I ended yesterdays AGS cycle early by setting it to OFF in the Mate menu. It did not drop power to the house when doing that. I have another AGS running today and will let it complete on its own to see what happens this time.

As for Generator mode amps - it does appear it will take almost twice as long to charge the batteries in Generator mode.

If anyone has ideas on how to get Support mode to work properly, or some other mode that will work properly let me know
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by raysun »

I have never experienced a generator stop causing the system to interrupt power delivery under Support mode.

Are there any events logged around the time it occurs?

Does it happen with a manual generator start/stop (or actually AC Input USE/DROP)?
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

raysun wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:35 pm I have never experienced a generator stop causing the system to interrupt power delivery under Support mode.

Are there any events logged around the time it occurs?

Does it happen with a manual generator start/stop (or actually AC Input USE/DROP)?
I've never had it interrupt power when I manually stop it via AGS tab Generator Mode setting. I've never done use/drop.

Twice since I got the new VFXR I had power drop briefly when the AGS ended on its own. The first time was in the middle of the night and there was less than .4kwh load at the time. The second time was daytime, there was a little solar input but not much due to heavy clouds. There was maybe .4 to .5 kwh load at the time.

Today's AGS run is hopefully getting close to finished. (it is taking close to twice as long as usual for some reason) I'll see if power is interrupted this time or not.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

raysun wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:35 pm I have never experienced a generator stop causing the system to interrupt power delivery under Support mode.

Are there any events logged around the time it occurs?

Does it happen with a manual generator start/stop (or actually AC Input USE/DROP)?
And it just finished and power dropped for a few seconds. The interesting thing is, it isnt the Generator turning off that drops power. It is when AGS ends that power drops. The generator runs a bit longer due to the cooldown setting.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by raysun »

AGS is outside my sphere of experience. Hopefully someone else can chime in.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

raysun wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:14 pm AGS is outside my sphere of experience. Hopefully someone else can chime in.
Thanks. I also sent a ticket to Outback support but I think they misunderstand the issue. Their first response was having me give them data on the PV side, which isnt the issue. Hopefully they can understand and get back with me on it. As it stands, the VFX inverter never had a single issue like this. The only difference in any setting I can find is the "Mode" setting.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by JRHill »

jtzako wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:18 pm
raysun wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:14 pm AGS is outside my sphere of experience. Hopefully someone else can chime in.
Thanks. I also sent a ticket to Outback support but I think they misunderstand the issue**. Their first response was having me give them data on the PV side, which isnt the issue. Hopefully they can understand and get back with me on it. As it stands, the VFX inverter never had a single issue like this. The only difference in any setting I can find is the "Mode" setting.
I don't see this as an AGS issue. Even though manual start/stop works from the Mate3x, what's the difference between that and an AGS cycle? The only difference is the latter is automated. It's the same whether manually initiated or the AGS. The generator comes on line, synchs with the inverter, does the run, shuts down and hands it off to the inverter. There should be no disruption. Everything is in synch. The only thing between a manual start/stop from the Mate3x and the AGS from the Mate3x are the settings. Can you please upload these?

Do the Mate3x Web app, Setup and print the page.

** Those folks are good. But they are subject to getting side tracked
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

JRHill wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:44 pm
jtzako wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:18 pm
raysun wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:14 pm AGS is outside my sphere of experience. Hopefully someone else can chime in.
Thanks. I also sent a ticket to Outback support but I think they misunderstand the issue**. Their first response was having me give them data on the PV side, which isnt the issue. Hopefully they can understand and get back with me on it. As it stands, the VFX inverter never had a single issue like this. The only difference in any setting I can find is the "Mode" setting.
I don't see this as an AGS issue. Even though manual start/stop works from the Mate3x, what's the difference between that and an AGS cycle? The only difference is the latter is automated. It's the same whether manually initiated or the AGS. The generator comes on line, synchs with the inverter, does the run, shuts down and hands it off to the inverter. There should be no disruption. Everything is in synch. The only thing between a manual start/stop from the Mate3x and the AGS from the Mate3x are the settings. Can you please upload these?

Do the Mate3x Web app, Setup and print the page.

** Those folks are good. But they are subject to getting side tracked
The mate settings are one of the files I uploaded. They are in one of the early posts in this thread.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by JRHill »

jtzako wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:04 pmThe mate settings are one of the files I uploaded. They are in one of the early posts in this thread.
We are in the same dilemma. There are things happening that just don't make sense. Your settings look good but I don't understand the LVCO at 44vdc with Lithium. But you have different batteries. Maybe this is OK on your system. The only other thing I wonder about its the Support mode. But don't change it. I'm exploring that right now as is Raysun.

But other than the AGS thing all is working?
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

JRHill wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:34 pm
jtzako wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:04 pmThe mate settings are one of the files I uploaded. They are in one of the early posts in this thread.
We are in the same dilemma. There are things happening that just don't make sense. Your settings look good but I don't understand the LVCO at 44vdc with Lithium. But you have different batteries. Maybe this is OK on your system. The only other thing I wonder about its the Support mode. But don't change it. I'm exploring that right now as is Raysun.

But other than the AGS thing all is working?
LVCO is above the low end of the operating range for my batteries. If AGS works, it'll never get that low anyway.

Everything else seems to work properly. PV charging works fine etc.

AGS does start properly. The issues are that in Generator mode it takes too long to charge (about double the time) and I lose power briefly when it ends. In Support mode it *was* working and charged quickly and ended properly. However, for some reason it started not charging properly in Support mode. It keeps going from "Charging" to "Not Charging" repeatedly and never reaches the AGS stop voltage as a result.

From this thread the one thing I changed as a test is the Gen Lower Voltage Limit up to 110 from the default 108. However, that did not help with the Support mode charge issue.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by provo »

jtzako wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:48 am
It keeps going from "Charging" to "Not Charging" repeatedly and never reaches the AGS stop voltage as a result.
This is a long shot, but do you have AC Input Select Priority set to Grid or Gen? Gen doesn't allow Offset to be enabled in Support, but Grid does. Offset being enabled would likely "steal" more power from the batteries, which could explain the frequent "not charging" periods.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

provo wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:15 am
jtzako wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:48 am
It keeps going from "Charging" to "Not Charging" repeatedly and never reaches the AGS stop voltage as a result.
This is a long shot, but do you have AC Input Select Priority set to Grid or Gen? Gen doesn't allow Offset to be enabled in Support, but Grid does. Offset being enabled would likely "steal" more power from the batteries, which could explain the frequent "not charging" periods.
It is set to Gen. I have no grid connection. I'm not sure if I need to somehow 'disable' the Grid related settings since I dont have that.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

provo wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:15 am
jtzako wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:48 am
It keeps going from "Charging" to "Not Charging" repeatedly and never reaches the AGS stop voltage as a result.
This is a long shot, but do you have AC Input Select Priority set to Grid or Gen? Gen doesn't allow Offset to be enabled in Support, but Grid does. Offset being enabled would likely "steal" more power from the batteries, which could explain the frequent "not charging" periods.
Something else I just discovered: On the actual Mate3s LCD screen under Events I can see "Battery Volt Sense Fault" then Battery Volt Sense OK" messages that appear to be when I lost power right at the end (or near the end) of Absorb phase.

This message doesnt show up anywhere in the OpticsRE event log, which is why I had missed it. It is only showing on the actual Mate3s itself.

I'm wondering if that is what is causing the power outage, or if it is just a symptom. I have rechecked the cable connections and all seems fine there so I am not sure why else there'd be a voltage loss.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by raysun »

I'm wondering if that is what is causing the power outage, or if it is just a symptom. I have rechecked the cable connections and all seems fine there so I am not sure why else there'd be a voltage loss.
I wonder if its something happening within the battery itself. Perhaps a BMS issue.

There's a signal cable that connects the two battery units, yes? That might be the first place to look.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

raysun wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:10 pm
I'm wondering if that is what is causing the power outage, or if it is just a symptom. I have rechecked the cable connections and all seems fine there so I am not sure why else there'd be a voltage loss.
I wonder if its something happening within the battery itself. Perhaps a BMS issue.

There's a signal cable that connects the two battery units, yes? That might be the first place to look.
The batteries are only connected via their parallel cable. (no control/signal wire etc) They do have individual BMS built in but there isnt a control or anything for it, just a display that shows the current voltage.

My guess is the voltage spikes for some reason and that is causing the BMS to shut down the battery. I'm not sure why that would have suddenly started though. The various settings in the new VFXR are the same that I had in the previous VFX inverter so I wouldnt expect the new VFXR to be somehow spiking the voltage when the old one did not.

What I may do is lower the absorb voltage another .4 to see if it still loses power at the end of AGS when in Support mode. Perhaps my generator is a bit imprecise in its output and the new charge parameters in the VFXR that did not exist before are more sensitive to that.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by raysun »

What does that "parallel cable" do?
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

raysun wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:25 pm What does that "parallel cable" do?
Its just how the two batteries are connected to eachother in parallel and to the DC power panel.
https://bigbattery.com/products/1-175-t ... lel-cable/
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by raysun »

Also, you have some debugging opportunities:

• If both inverters are being used, try charging with the FXR alone.

• If the old FX is set up for charging, turn off the charger in the FXR and only use the FX. If the FX charges OK, then it may be the FXR, DC charging voltage differences between the two inverters, or a charging rate issue.

• Disconnect each of the battery units in turn, and charge one at a time on the FXR/FX (adjusting charge current as necessary.) If they both charge OK separately, then something in the parallel connection between them may be an issue.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

raysun wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:38 pm Also, you have some debugging opportunities:

• If both inverters are being used, try charging with the FXR alone.

• If the old FX is set up for charging, turn off the charger in the FXR and only use the FX. If the FX charges OK, then it may be the FXR, DC charging voltage differences between the two inverters, or a charging rate issue.

• Disconnect each of the battery units in turn, and charge one at a time on the FXR/FX (adjusting charge current as necessary.) If they both charge OK separately, then something in the parallel connection between them may be an issue.
I have disconnected the FX to see if things will charge without it. (they did work together a few times with AGS before this problem started)

Depending on how that works out I'll try a single battery.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:38 pmIf the FX charges OK, then it may be the FXR
I just can't imagine a VFXR problem....
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by raysun »

JRHill wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:02 pm
raysun wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:38 pmIf the FX charges OK, then it may be the FXR
I just can't imagine a VFXR problem....
The time honored method of reducing the problem domain to single variables is one of the best techniques for identifying sources.

I have zero imagination, which always made me a good problem-solver.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:06 pmI have zero imagination, which always made me a good problem-solver.
Saying you have no imagination could prove you have an imagination. :grin:

But I know you to be a problem solver!
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

raysun wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:10 pm
I'm wondering if that is what is causing the power outage, or if it is just a symptom. I have rechecked the cable connections and all seems fine there so I am not sure why else there'd be a voltage loss.
I wonder if its something happening within the battery itself. Perhaps a BMS issue.

There's a signal cable that connects the two battery units, yes? That might be the first place to look.
I had the VFXR inverter by itself and the system would not charge via generator at all. The gen turned on per AGS rules like usual but the VFXR yellow AC light was going solid, then returned to blinking then solid again over and over every few seconds. (along with a click inside the inverter each time it switches)

I then shut everything down and moved back over to the old FX inverter and re-tested and it seems to work perfectly.

I'm not sure what the voltage spikes were caused by but I did determine that they were most likely the reason for power loss (the batteries have a BMS that shut them off so they wouldnt get damaged). That issue doesnt seem to happen on the FX inverter.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by raysun »

If charging is turned off altogether in both inverters, the generator connected to the FXR and started manually, does it connect successfully and run the house loads? (You may need to press AC Input on the Mate and set USE manually).
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