Generator not turning off after AGS run?

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jtzako
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Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

I've just had an odd issue that has happened the last two times AGS ran the generator but hasnt happened previously.
AGS started when the battery voltage reached the set voltage, and then the generator ran for ~ 2hrs to charge the batteries. However, when the voltage got to the absorb, the system did not shut down the Generator, it just dropped to bulk and sat there with the generator still running.

I dont think anything has changed since the last time it worked correctly so I am wondering what might be going wrong here.
The first time this happened the generator had been on in the middle of the night and by the time I woke up it had been running for about 5hrs. This recent time it ran in the day and I watched what it was doing and I see no errors or anything, it just didnt turn off.

I was able to turn it off via the Mate AGS tab so I know the aux connection should at least be working.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by JRHill »

It would really help if you could attach the event log and also your AGS settings. Pretty easy if you are using OpticsRE. Alternatively you can do it from the Web interface of the Mate3x.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

JRHill wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:03 am It would really help if you could attach the event log and also your AGS settings. Pretty easy if you are using OpticsRE. Alternatively you can do it from the Web interface of the Mate3x.
Attached.

Nothing stands out in the log. Just the AGS started then it appears to have bounced between bulk and not charging repeatedly until I manually shut it off.
Attachments
Events.xlsx
(11.71 KiB) Downloaded 12 times
mate.pdf
(795.01 KiB) Downloaded 13 times
inverter.pdf
(555.78 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by raysun »

Perhaps the charger is not holding the Absorb Voltage for the requisite 12 minutes. This would be the case when there is sufficient load to drain off charge current to the point the battery drops out of Absorb.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by JRHill »

Status Calhoun LFP COMM M Battery Voltage below 2 minute start voltage. Automatic Generator Start (AGS) Started. Measured Battery Voltage 51.2 VDC. -- -- -- -- 1/17/2022 6:58

Then:
Status Calhoun LFP COMM M Critically low battery SOC percentage has returned to normal range. -- -- -- -- 1/17/2022 7:52

You got from critical low to normal range in less than an hour?!? You are using the 2 minute start. Only. Wonderful. We know when the gen starts starts it runs a full charge cycle using the 2 minute start. You get there in record time... I'm just posting notes and still reading.
Last edited by JRHill on Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by raysun »

You got from critical low to normal range in less than an hour?!?
Maybe due to a pair of VFX3648s charging the battery in tandem?

That leads to another thought...
Are both inverter chargers calibrated to read exactly the same battery voltage?
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:25 pm
You got from critical low to normal range in less than an hour?!?
Maybe due to a pair of VFX3648s charging the battery in tandem?

That leads to another thought...
Are both inverter chargers calibrated to read exactly the same battery voltage?
Hmm. jtzako, I don't suppose this is a new thing since you added the ol VFX for charging only?

I have my own charging problems but this is really interesting. All I can suggest is to pull/disconnect the VFX 'charger' out and go back to basics. Does it work then?
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

raysun wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:16 pm Perhaps the charger is not holding the Absorb Voltage for the requisite 12 minutes. This would be the case when there is sufficient load to drain off charge current to the point the battery drops out of Absorb.
There was no significant load at the time. It would have been in the .3 to .4 kwh range.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

JRHill wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:20 pm Status Calhoun LFP COMM M Battery Voltage below 2 minute start voltage. Automatic Generator Start (AGS) Started. Measured Battery Voltage 51.2 VDC. -- -- -- -- 1/17/2022 6:58

Then:
Status Calhoun LFP COMM M Critically low battery SOC percentage has returned to normal range. -- -- -- -- 1/17/2022 7:52

You got from critical low to normal range in less than an hour?!? You are using the 2 minute start. Only. Wonderful. We know when the gen starts starts it runs a full charge cycle using the 2 minute start. You get there in record time... I'm just posting notes and still reading.
Im on LFP batteries, no need for the other start times than 2minute. Also, the SOC is pretty much BS on this system as the FNDC doesnt seem to understand these batteries. I do not have SOC in use anywhere for start/stop charging etc.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

JRHill wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:32 pm
raysun wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:25 pm
You got from critical low to normal range in less than an hour?!?
Maybe due to a pair of VFX3648s charging the battery in tandem?

That leads to another thought...
Are both inverter chargers calibrated to read exactly the same battery voltage?
Hmm. jtzako, I don't suppose this is a new thing since you added the ol VFX for charging only?

I have my own charging problems but this is really interesting. All I can suggest is to pull/disconnect the VFX 'charger' out and go back to basics. Does it work then?
They do seem to be calibrated to read the same voltage and have the same settings in the battery charging department.
The system did charge properly from AGS multiple times after adding the old VFX to assist in charging. As far as I know nothing should have changed from when it worked until it started doing this new problem.

I havent had a chance to try and disconnect the extra VFX but if nothing else can be determined I will try that.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

raysun wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:25 pm
You got from critical low to normal range in less than an hour?!?
Maybe due to a pair of VFX3648s charging the battery in tandem?

That leads to another thought...
Are both inverter chargers calibrated to read exactly the same battery voltage?
It does get back above 50% "SOC" reasonably quick with the two inverters charging. The total charge time is only about 2hrs with the two inverters. However, I dont actually have the SOC in use anywhere since FNDC doesnt seem to understand these batteries properly. I have the FNDC there purely to shut the VFX if the voltage happens to go too high.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by raysun »

Also, the SOC is pretty much BS on this system as the FNDC doesnt seem to understand these batteries. I do not have SOC in use anywhere for start/stop charging etc.
That's interesting, as SoC is determined by counting current into and out of the battery. Both are external measurements and have little to do with battery architecture. (Other than the Peukerts Constant being about 10% high for LiFePo4.)
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

raysun wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:21 pm
Also, the SOC is pretty much BS on this system as the FNDC doesnt seem to understand these batteries. I do not have SOC in use anywhere for start/stop charging etc.
That's interesting, as SoC is determined by counting current into and out of the battery. Both are external measurements and have little to do with battery architecture. (Other than the Peukerts Constant being about 10% high for LiFePo4.)
The only thing I can think of is that the FNDC doesnt have an exact enough setting for amp hours to match what I have. In any case, I dont use that function so it doesnt matter to me. It just puts extra spam in the logs.

We had another snowy day so the generator is currently doing an AGS cycle. I notice that when it got to about 2hrs in, but not yet 'full charge' the generator went through a few 'bulk charging' to 'not charging' state changes. I'm not sure why that would be happening but I think that is keeping the battery voltage from fully climbing up to the set 'absorb' number. That might be why AGS doesnt shut off though I'm not sure why it is doing this.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by raysun »

The FNDC is easy to properly configure. Setting that aside, though, the charging issue is unusual.

If charging from solar, Bulk Charging to Not Charging could be a common event on cloudy days. However, charging from a consistent source like the generator powered inverter chargers. Especially two independent chargers. The only common denominator is battery voltage. If it is spiking up above Absorb voltage, charging would stop.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

raysun wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:44 pm The FNDC is easy to properly configure. Setting that aside, though, the charging issue is unusual.

If charging from solar, Bulk Charging to Not Charging could be a common event on cloudy days. However, charging from a consistent source like the generator powered inverter chargers. Especially two independent chargers. The only common denominator is battery voltage. If it is spiking up above Absorb voltage, charging would stop.
Would the system not log if an overvoltage was detected?
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by raysun »

jtzako wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:06 pm
raysun wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:44 pm The FNDC is easy to properly configure. Setting that aside, though, the charging issue is unusual.

If charging from solar, Bulk Charging to Not Charging could be a common event on cloudy days. However, charging from a consistent source like the generator powered inverter chargers. Especially two independent chargers. The only common denominator is battery voltage. If it is spiking up above Absorb voltage, charging would stop.
Would the system not log if an overvoltage was detected?
Depends on the event. If its a HBCO event it would. If simply above absorb, not necessarily.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

raysun wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:12 pm
jtzako wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:06 pm
raysun wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:44 pm The FNDC is easy to properly configure. Setting that aside, though, the charging issue is unusual.

If charging from solar, Bulk Charging to Not Charging could be a common event on cloudy days. However, charging from a consistent source like the generator powered inverter chargers. Especially two independent chargers. The only common denominator is battery voltage. If it is spiking up above Absorb voltage, charging would stop.
Would the system not log if an overvoltage was detected?
Depends on the event. If its a HBCO event it would. If simply above absorb, not necessarily.
I've just gone to re-check the calibration and somehow both inverters are not correct. The odd thing is, the day I installed the new inverter, both showed the same voltage reading as the CC and my multimeter. Somehow they have shifted. I had to adjust the VFXR by +.8 and the VFX by +.4 to get them to match up again.

I also re-checked the settings in both to make sure they match up for voltages/times etc.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by raysun »

Keep an eye on them during the next charge cycle.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

raysun wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:45 pm Keep an eye on them during the next charge cycle.
I dont think the calibration (or high voltage) is the issue. I'm watching it on an AGS cycle this morning and even though the voltage is still pretty low (51.7 currently) it is still cycling between charging and not charging on the VFXR. I can hear the click in the inverter and see the yellow light start blinking, then go solid repeatedly.

The voltage on the inverter, CC, FNDC/Mate and the batteries LCD screen all light up, but this is still happening.

I'm not sure if it is relevant, but the old VFX yellow light is not cycling like that. It is staying solid yellow. I know there are several differences in configuration on the new VFXR, could something be not set correctly?
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by raysun »

It sounds like the VFXR is dropping the generator. This would be a common occurrence if the generator can't provide enough current, or voltage / frequency fall out of the acceptable ranges.

As a test, try running only one charger.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by jtzako »

raysun wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:49 am It sounds like the VFXR is dropping the generator. This would be a common occurrence if the generator can't provide enough current, or voltage / frequency fall out of the acceptable ranges.

As a test, try running only one charger.
I was doing some reading and it seems like maybe Support mode might be more picky when it comes to generator input so I tried switching to Generator mode.
Interestingly, it did not drop the generator anymore and continued to charge up normally and AGS ended as expected after the 6 minute absorb stage.

The downside, is, Generator mode causes the house to briefly lose power when it switches off generator power and onto battery power.

So I'm now wondering if there is another mode that would work properly (charges correctly AND doesnt drop the power to the house) or if there are some settings I could adjust to get it to behave properly.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by raysun »

Check the AC Input/Gen/Gen Lower Voltage Limit. Try setting it to the maximum voltage (110V I believe.)
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by JRHill »

jtzako wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:09 pmThe downside, is, Generator mode causes the house to briefly lose power when it switches off generator power and onto battery power.
There is another downside, at least for me. With the VFXR in generator mode I could only get 17aac for charging the batteries so I was having at least a 10% reduction in usage of the genset. It was suggested to use Support. Yup, it went to 19-20aac immediately after. Generator power quality was not an issue but there is definitely some derating in generator mode. Again, for me.

But whether in generator mode or support I have not experienced the momentary power loss when dropping the genset. At least, for me.(don't cha just hate the 'for me' qualifier? I sure do.)
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by raysun »

I always warned my programmers if they ever said: "It works on my PC..." in my presence the Retribution would be biblical, and I mean Old Testiment.
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Re: Generator not turning off after AGS run?

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:20 pm I always warned my programmers if they ever said: "It works on my PC..." in my presence the Retribution would be biblical, and I mean Old Testiment.
I like Retribution, as long as it isn't on my conscience. I have been known to be wrong. Like in getting my OB system 'correct'. But there are places where I know I'm right. So if you are one of the chosen by some measure or definition you will have your validation and maybe in your lifetime?

It wasn't long ago that OB problems could be brought up and solved here. We would weigh in and what worked for one person many times worked for another, barring physical things like connections, etc. Now it seems our systems, even with very similar components, are having curious differences, at least to me (wink). Maybe this is a new learning curve.

But my pursuit is unchanged. I want a system that is substantially maintenance free in case something happened where my DW had to take over. Some of this recent stuff is a new challenge, minor as it is in the big picture.
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