The autostart doesn't always come on

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pioneerMan
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Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:40 pm
My RE system: 12 volt system
26 lead acid batteries, 6V, each rated at 210 amp hours
12 solar panels (Mitsubishi 125 Watt)
Outback VFX2812 inverter and two FLEXmax 60 inverters
Trimetric 2030A battery monitor
Mate 3d
Dual fuel 4500 watt AC generator
Location: Northern Utah

The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by pioneerMan »

The autostart is great when it works, which is most of the time. But sometimes it doesn't come on when the battery voltage drops low. Here you can see I have the 2 minute start to kick in when the voltage drops to 11.5:

batt2.jpeg

But the generator didn't come on the other day. In fact, the whole system shut down. This other screenshot shows the voltage went down to 11.1.

batt1.jpeg

What is causing the AGS to not always start when it should? Could it be that the water pump comes on and, before the 2 minute start countdown can finish, the pump coming on puts the system over the edge and the entire thing shuts down?

And please, no disparaging replies from JRHill.
sbrownian
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Posts: 653
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3 4 port HUB
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Off grid.
Originally installed with 1200 AH of FLA Locomotive batts.
Replaced after 9 years of service with 2 x 300 AH ReLion Lithium packs.
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by sbrownian »

Filtered out your bad battery blocks yet? :wink:
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
User avatar
sodamo
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Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by sodamo »

Download the OpticsRE report.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com
pioneerMan
Forum Guru
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:40 pm
My RE system: 12 volt system
26 lead acid batteries, 6V, each rated at 210 amp hours
12 solar panels (Mitsubishi 125 Watt)
Outback VFX2812 inverter and two FLEXmax 60 inverters
Trimetric 2030A battery monitor
Mate 3d
Dual fuel 4500 watt AC generator
Location: Northern Utah

Re: The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by pioneerMan »

sodamo wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:11 am Download the OpticsRE report.
I don't have OpticsRE yet. I have to decide if I really want to create a 300 foot trench to supply the battery shed with a network cable.
pioneerMan
Forum Guru
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:40 pm
My RE system: 12 volt system
26 lead acid batteries, 6V, each rated at 210 amp hours
12 solar panels (Mitsubishi 125 Watt)
Outback VFX2812 inverter and two FLEXmax 60 inverters
Trimetric 2030A battery monitor
Mate 3d
Dual fuel 4500 watt AC generator
Location: Northern Utah

Re: The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by pioneerMan »

sbrownian wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:25 pm Filtered out your bad battery blocks yet? :wink:
I don't think that is the problem in this case.
sbrownian
Forum Czar
Posts: 653
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3 4 port HUB
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Off grid.
Originally installed with 1200 AH of FLA Locomotive batts.
Replaced after 9 years of service with 2 x 300 AH ReLion Lithium packs.
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by sbrownian »

pioneerMan wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:07 am
sbrownian wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:25 pm Filtered out your bad battery blocks yet? :wink:
I don't think that is the problem in this case.
Reeeallly....
Care to explain your reasoning?
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
sbrownian
Forum Czar
Posts: 653
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3 4 port HUB
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Off grid.
Originally installed with 1200 AH of FLA Locomotive batts.
Replaced after 9 years of service with 2 x 300 AH ReLion Lithium packs.
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by sbrownian »

pioneerMan wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:06 am
sodamo wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:11 am Download the OpticsRE report.
I don't have OpticsRE yet. I have to decide if I really want to create a 300 foot trench to supply the battery shed with a network cable.
Don't have to dig (much,) to purchase an SD format memory card, stick it in the Mate, and set up data logging...
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
pioneerMan
Forum Guru
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:40 pm
My RE system: 12 volt system
26 lead acid batteries, 6V, each rated at 210 amp hours
12 solar panels (Mitsubishi 125 Watt)
Outback VFX2812 inverter and two FLEXmax 60 inverters
Trimetric 2030A battery monitor
Mate 3d
Dual fuel 4500 watt AC generator
Location: Northern Utah

Re: The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by pioneerMan »

sbrownian wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:55 am Care to explain your reasoning?
The AGS is designed to come on when the criteria is met in the Mate settings, right? The battery could be brand new or 6 years old, the age shouldn't interfere with the Mate settings.

So even though my 2 minute start is designed to turn on the generator when the voltage drops to 11.5, sometimes that setting is being ignored, because the whole system occasionally shuts down when the voltage drops to 11.0. It's sporadic. For example, the AGS worked fine this morning. I need to figure out why it works most of the time, but sometimes not.

IMG_4193.jpeg
User avatar
sodamo
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1206
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by sodamo »

I think without an accurate record of the voltage drop/time you may be making assumptions. Quite possibly the 2 minute criteria wasn’t met before shutdown especially if a significant load on weak battery. Why not increase the AGS trigger voltage a bit?
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com
pioneerMan
Forum Guru
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:40 pm
My RE system: 12 volt system
26 lead acid batteries, 6V, each rated at 210 amp hours
12 solar panels (Mitsubishi 125 Watt)
Outback VFX2812 inverter and two FLEXmax 60 inverters
Trimetric 2030A battery monitor
Mate 3d
Dual fuel 4500 watt AC generator
Location: Northern Utah

Re: The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by pioneerMan »

sodamo wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:34 pm I think without an accurate record of the voltage drop/time you may be making assumptions. Quite possibly the 2 minute criteria wasn’t met before shutdown especially if a significant load on weak battery. Why not increase the AGS trigger voltage a bit?
The data logs only record one new row per day, right? Is there some other way to track the voltage drop per time? I could increase the AGS trigger to 12.0, but overall that would cause the generator to start up multiple times per night. Start, charge, stop, voltage drop to 12.0, rinse, repeat.
sbrownian
Forum Czar
Posts: 653
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3 4 port HUB
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Off grid.
Originally installed with 1200 AH of FLA Locomotive batts.
Replaced after 9 years of service with 2 x 300 AH ReLion Lithium packs.
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by sbrownian »

pioneerMan wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:25 pm
sodamo wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:34 pm I think without an accurate record of the voltage drop/time you may be making assumptions. Quite possibly the 2 minute criteria wasn’t met before shutdown especially if a significant load on weak battery. Why not increase the AGS trigger voltage a bit?
The data logs only record one new row per day, right? Is there some other way to track the voltage drop per time? I could increase the AGS trigger to 12.0, but overall that would cause the generator to start up multiple times per night. Start, charge, stop, voltage drop to 12.0, rinse, repeat.
Psst.....

Re-read the part about the SD card above....
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
raysun
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Posts: 5277
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My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by raysun »

Its actually pretty amazing how many problems directly attributable to a bad battery can be ignored in an effort to accomodate the further use of a bad battery.

Though not exactly the same issue, the same cause and effect used to show up in computer programming projects that I'd get dumped in my lap. I'd see the coding team dance on all manner of hot coals in an attempt to avoid getting into the hard work of fundamental changes needed in a hot mess of a code base.

The coders' rationales were always amusing. My stock answer was: "If your house is burning down, you should stop painting it."
sbrownian
Forum Czar
Posts: 653
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3 4 port HUB
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Off grid.
Originally installed with 1200 AH of FLA Locomotive batts.
Replaced after 9 years of service with 2 x 300 AH ReLion Lithium packs.
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by sbrownian »

raysun wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:49 pm Its actually pretty amazing how many problems directly attributable to a bad battery can be ignored in an effort to accomodate the further use of a bad battery.
Yes, isn't it....
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 5277
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by raysun »

One thing of value that may come out of this to share with the group is we may learn the duty cycle and mean time before failure of one of those Chinese Westinghouse generators.
jsmith
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Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 11:01 pm
My RE system: 12 Shell SQ 165 and 175 (2kW)
MX60
2 FX3048T
X240 Autotransformer
Mate (original)
FNDC
Hub-4
Hawker PowerSafe AGM Battery, 1800 Ah
Northern Lights 8 kW Diesel Generator
Location: Big Island, HI

Re: The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by jsmith »

Many have been in this situation and I'm certainly part of that club. I believe that you properly identified part of the problem as the load demand, pump startup, which can no longer consistently be met by your AGS parameters. When your battery was new, available amphours at the AGS 2 minute voltage setpoint was greater than when the battery is approaching end of life. Your battery must support the load which triggered AGS along with any others, such as the refrigerator, which might happen to be running during the 2 minute AGS delay plus whatever generator warmup time you have programed. Those loads vary, so sometimes it all works out OK but, sometimes, the batteries can't handle the job and the system shuts down. Aged batteries can't perform like when they were young. After the system shuts down, you likely check the Mate and find system voltage has recovered enough to exceed the 2 minute set point. This is not unusual since there is no longer a load on the battery.

Like you, I chose to nurse failing batteries longer than their productive life. Nothing wrong with that as long as you and your household can adjust to the limitations and occasional discomforts along with increasing generator fuel and maintenance costs.
User avatar
sodamo
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1206
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:55 am
My RE system: Totally off grid - Hamakua side, Big Island, Hi

36 Trina 280 & 16 Phono 250 in 48 volt array (fixed) 14080w
Radians GG8048/GS4048 w GSLCs
4 FM 80 charge controllers
Hub 10.3
FNDC w/3 shunts
Mate 3s
OpticsRE - MMKL - Ninole Hi
12 SimpliPhi 3.8
14Kw Kohler 14RESA Propane

Charging Only
2FX3048T
Hub
FNDC. - shared shunt feeds from Radian FNDC
Mate 3s
10Kw MEP 803a Military gen

Honda EU7000i

Davis VantagePro2 Wx Station
On line at: https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/KHININOL2
Location: Ninole, Hi

Re: The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by sodamo »

Boy, does that sound familiar.
David
Please visit http://vacation.ninolehawaii.com
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 5277
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by raysun »

sodamo wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:39 pm Boy, does that sound familiar.
Heh! It seems like just yesterday.
sbrownian
Forum Czar
Posts: 653
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:23 am
My RE system: GS8048 FM80 FNDC Mate3 4 port HUB
4kw solar
7kw Kubota propane gen
Off grid.
Originally installed with 1200 AH of FLA Locomotive batts.
Replaced after 9 years of service with 2 x 300 AH ReLion Lithium packs.
MUCH more efficient!!
Location: Central Washington State

Re: The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by sbrownian »

But the lithium makes it all seem so, well, stable, and improves my mental health to boot... :mrgreen:
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 5277
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A-01, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
REC Alpha 440W panels - 2 arrays: each of 4 strings of 2 in series
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: The autostart doesn't always come on

Post by raysun »

sbrownian wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:22 am But the lithium makes it all seem so, well, stable, and improves my mental health to boot... :mrgreen:
Truth. The best thing about lithium, IMO, is the ease at which they charge.

The mental deterioration caused by lead is replaced by the uplifting properties of lithium. 😅
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