sulfation?

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raysun
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Re: sulfation?

Post by raysun »

JRHill wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:41 pm
raysun wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:22 pmMy 6' ball of tin foil continues to grow. You know, for use during the apocalypse.

There's no doubt what wins the race to charge - lithium
The dogs cover the apocalypse intrusion. If not, we have other coverage. But that's a different subject.

Really, I just need to get the best out of my stuff. Everyone else wants the same. Back to the previous subject, when it comes to $5k to $13k expenditures I'd rather be dealing with zombies. At least I can get immediate results. With batteries I have to wait 5 or 10 years.
Just one word: 5G and chemtrails.

OK that's three words, but we conspiracy theorists don't connect linear reality when we have orthogonal ill-logic on our side.

Batteries are the whole-life annuities of the alternate energy world. Just write the check, kiss the money goodbye, and do everything you can to stay healthy and alive.
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Re: sulfation?

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:02 pmBatteries are the whole-life annuities of the alternate energy world. Just write the check, kiss the money goodbye, and do everything you can to stay healthy and alive.
Dang, you can depress a guy, sigh. And a bad day it was - the dog killed our ol rooster that wakes us up before dawn. I hated that rooster, kind of. Life is so full of problems these days. There are other problems I hear....
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Re: sulfation?

Post by raysun »

So I've been given to understand. We're too far away so news travels slow. I hear social distancing is a thing. We're definitely going to observe it. Only problem is we'd have to up and move about 40 miles to get within range of the recommended safe distances.

Sounds serious though, our young friends from a couple farms away called all concerned and offered to do our grocery shopping for us. I get out of spending all day driving miss Daisy to the store? Silver linings my friend, look for silver linings. (As a bonus those silver linings cause edge effect and drive those aging PV panels like they're spring chickens.)

If your pup wants to come vacation in Hawaii he's more than welcome to come hang with our dogs. He can hunt down some wild chickens in the back acre. He can show our baby Catalahoua how it's done. My older pup couldn't be bothered. He'd rather lead all the local dogs in community improv theater.
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Re: sulfation?

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:03 pmHe can show our baby Catalahoua how it's done.
No kidding - you've got a Cat pup? I have some input. Cool, wonderful dog. But can be the opposite. Hmm, just like children I suppose. I'll PM you with a personal email. I'd love to some pix of your flavor of Catahoula! They can vary so much.
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Re: sulfation?

Post by Sparkey »

Another thought on equalization is to shuffle the batteries in the bank as there is a resistive chain that can encourage one battery/cell to become the weak link.. Not fun when the batteries are #150 but I believe this is a worth while maintenance move..
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Re: sulfation?

Post by JRHill »

Sparkey wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:37 am Another thought on equalization is to shuffle the batteries in the bank as there is a resistive chain that can encourage one battery/cell to become the weak link.. Not fun when the batteries are #150 but I believe this is a worth while maintenance move..
In the lead days upon installation I numbered them. When I got completely bored I had rotated them in a simple fashion. Two times, in fact. The bottom line is the effort didn't pan out in the end. When a cell went weak it didn't matter where it was. And the rotation, in addition to being a PITA, just added jostling and handling. There were other longevity factors for me more important than bank rotation. I'm not sure how one could keep data that would justify the rotation of series connected blocks.
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Re: sulfation?

Post by JRHill »

Bubba2.jpg
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Re: sulfation?

Post by provo »

Sparkey wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:37 am Another thought on equalization is to shuffle the batteries in the bank as there is a resistive chain that can encourage one battery/cell to become the weak link.. Not fun when the batteries are #150 but I believe this is a worth while maintenance move..
You know, I've never heard this resistive chain idea before. I figure each battery in a string sees the same current, and each battery has its own internal resistance (which of course can all be different), but I don't understand how each battery in a string would behave differently just because of where it was along the string.

Could you post any literature citations where I could study this idea?
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Re: sulfation?

Post by Mike Curran »

provo wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:29 am
Sparkey wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:37 am Another thought on equalization is to shuffle the batteries in the bank as there is a resistive chain that can encourage one battery/cell to become the weak link.. Not fun when the batteries are #150 but I believe this is a worth while maintenance move..
You know, I've never heard this resistive chain idea before. I figure each battery in a string sees the same current, and each battery has its own internal resistance (which of course can all be different), but I don't understand how each battery in a string would behave differently just because of where it was along the string.
I agree. If you had 2 or more parallel strings of batteries then it might help to move a weak cell into another string, but I very much doubt it's worth the effort.
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Re: sulfation?

Post by Sparkey »

OK we all know that batteries have some internal resistance that they are similar to a resistor/capacitor as they have both resistance and capacitance.. So each cell in a bank of batteries can be thought of as that kind of component in a circuit.. The first battery/cell receives the flow of electrons , its internal resistance converts a small amount into heat while its capacitive function starts storing the electron while the resistive part passes on what that cell is not capable of absorbing to the next cells resistive capacitive electronic makeup and so on and this is why undercharging a battery is its death sentance.. Although the drop is small it is there and if you have a cell with higher resistance/capacitance then the effect of heating and lack of storing is multiplied.. The time honored solution is to equalize/pump higher voltage and current then the fully charged cell requires in effect use brute force to overcome the chain effect with saturation.. But this also leaves the first and last cells in a chain with extra stress.. Have you ever noticed on batteries that have been worked with charge and discharge cycles that the first one/cell always needs a bit more watering then the rest?? We also know that there are always cells that don't seem to be as worked as the rest like the middle of the string.. Over years don't you think this has an effect?? Bigger the string bigger the effect it would seem to me.. I have noticed in electric circuits that need repaired you most often find the bad transistor/resistor/capacitor at the beginning , middle or end of a circuit where the stress is higher.. You rotate your tires don't you??

https://www.electrical4u.com/voltage-in-series/

PS, worth and effort are to each subjective..
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Re: sulfation?

Post by raysun »

PS, worth and effort are to each subjective..
Actually it can be moved out of the subjective realm by doing actual measures. This particular rotation strategy has been tested several times without conclusive results.

Can you cite anything that shows this actually works?
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Re: sulfation?

Post by JRHill »

Sparkey wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:05 amHave you ever noticed on batteries that have been worked with charge and discharge cycles that the first one/cell always needs a bit more watering then the rest??.
Nope.
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Re: sulfation?

Post by JRHill »

Megunticook wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:23 am Any and all advice welcome
Megunticook, what was the outcome of this?
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Re: sulfation?

Post by sbrownian »

Unless you have a temperature differential across the string due to a fan, vent, next to a heat source, etc. there won't be a discernible difference due to positioning in the string.
Information, you get not; if incorrect question, you ask..
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Re: sulfation?

Post by Shadow_Storm56 »

Your batteries are just fine, I have the same batteries and it does take a fair number of cycles to get them to full capacity. You can actually see if by watching the specific gravity as it will not go up to rating until this peroid is over. I use them for backup as welll and it took over a year for them to come to full chemistry as I did not cycle them much. If you want to get them to full capacity you need to cycle them more for a while.
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Re: sulfation?

Post by Shadow_Storm56 »

Megunticook wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:23 am During my routine battery check yesterday I noticed a light gray material in between some of the plates. Is this sulfation?

S.G. ranged from 1.280-1.295 (that's a bit higher than normal, usually more like 1.275-1.290). The electrolyte level was a bit down (roughly 1" from the bottom of the filler tubes), so I added enough water to bring the level to within 1/2" of the tubes. No plates were exposed. I did a 1-1/2 hour equalization at 62.2 V and I "think" it removed some of the gray material but that's just my casual observation. I still see some. Should I do a three hour EQ?

These are Rolls S-550 FLA batteries, going on two years old now, and mostly sit fully charged in my grid-tie system. I try to "exercise" them every couple months by discharging to roughly 75% SOC and recharging with the solar array, and about every 6 months or so they get an EQ.

I'm wondering if I need to do more. Discharge more deeply, more often? Make sure they get a heavy current when charging? Longer EQ?

I'll see if I can get a picture. Maybe I'm worrying too much. But I'd like to remove all that gray stuff from the plates ASAP.

My battery manual says that these batteries have a "break-in" period of 60-90 cycles, during which time their capacity will actually increase. I've only cycled them 9 times. Maybe I should just work them a lot harder.

Any and all advice welcome
Oh I missed that the first time, if your sg is that high your batteries are broken in and your plates look completley normal.
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Re: sulfation?

Post by pss »

I have experienced this with my Trojans where the cell, if stirred up manually and then the electrolyte taken out to view looks a little greyish. It seems the grey material sits on the bottom of the cell. I corrected the issue by doing the following: I topped off all the cells with distilled water. I then brought all the batteries to a full charge. I then ran an equalization for 3-5 hours daily for about 5-6 days in a row. After that I have kept all cells topped off every 30 days and do a 3 hour equalization every 2 weeks to 4 weeks and the battery liquid cleared back up and the batteries performance is spot on. So it is my conclusion that this is a reversible condition, probably caused by infrequent equalization and reaching full manufacturer's charging specs for a period of time and not a sign of permanent damage.
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Re: sulfation?

Post by Mike Curran »

That grey stuff at the bottom could also be lead that's been shed from the plates over time. Happens more if batteries are overcharged. No way to get it back where it came from. In the electrolyte itself, no idea what that is.
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Re: sulfation?

Post by JRHill »

Reconditioning FLA batteries? This has been going on and on and on for years. Whether the BatteryMinder stuff or EQs or dumping and refilling and on and on it will never end. In a full time off-grid situation I can't play into that experimentation. If it works for you then you should be able to create a side business.

One thing is for sure: very few things are better than a fresh set of batteries. Using the millennial verbiage, OMG!!! But as they get older, as do we, and you are commanding the wife to go out and start the generator at 3am, it just doesn't work.
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Re: sulfation?

Post by raysun »

:grin:
But as they get older, as do we, and you are commanding the wife to go out and start the generator at 3am, it just doesn't work.
I believe, in operations parlance, this is called "a non-starter."
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Re: sulfation?

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:53 am :grin:
But as they get older, as do we, and you are commanding the wife to go out and start the generator at 3am, it just doesn't work.
I believe, in operations parlance, this is called "a non-starter."
Here's where my system is better than yours. Nah-nah-nayn-nayn-nyah. We can push a button inside and you can't. But she still won't do it. I think its like this - if I can't make it to the Mate she's gonna take me hunting.
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Re: sulfation?

Post by raysun »

:lol:
JRHill wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:32 pm
raysun wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:53 am :grin:
But as they get older, as do we, and you are commanding the wife to go out and start the generator at 3am, it just doesn't work.
I believe, in operations parlance, this is called "a non-starter."
Here's where my system is better than yours. Nah-nah-nayn-nayn-nyah. We can push a button inside and you can't. But she still won't do it. I think its like this - if I can't make it to the Mate she's gonna take me hunting.
😆

Yes, this is so. However, my system doesn't have remote generator start, because it doesn't need remote generator start. So there. 😛

No midnight dashes to the power house (only the outhouse). No latent threats of being murdered in my sleep (for this.)

To each, his own.
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Re: sulfation?

Post by JRHill »

raysun wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:39 pmonly the outhouse
Now that is a building that is worth its weight in gold.
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