New VFXRs, higher overnight loads

Discussion about OutBack Inverters in Grid Tie Applications

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Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1893
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
[***2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007-2020)]
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, ***replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

New VFXRs, higher overnight loads

Post by Mike Curran »

I just replaced my 13 year old GVFX inverters with VFXRs, and noticed two operational differences.

One is the overnight load power consumption has tripled per Optics (although SOC seems not to have been affected). Here are screenshots from before and after:
Screenshot_20201122-123439_Samsung Internet.jpg
Screenshot_20201122-123623_Samsung Internet.jpg
The other difference is the green inverter LED indicator is off on both inverters. I'm used to seeing this on with the GVFXs.

I'm thinking that maybe the power monitoring done by the FXRs is more accurate (?) than the GFXs were, especially since it appears SOC isn't appreciably different by morning.

As far as the green lights off, I've verified the inverters are "on" at the Mate. Now, maybe the slave inverter LED should be off, but not both slave AND master.

Any ideas? Note the only other change I made was to swap the inverters' vertical mounting positions so as to put the master in the lower position. Before it was on top and tended to overheat. This swap did result in each inverter also swapping the AC loads they see (compared to before), but the loads themselves haven't changed.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
fcwlp
Forum Czar
Posts: 648
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:40 am
My RE system: GS8048A, FM80 w/3,600W PV Fixed, FM80 w/2,700W on Zomeworks tracker, Mate3, 24 Trojan 2V L16 1100AH @ C20, Grid-Tied with Kohler 14RESA LPG Generator and MEP-803 Diesel if needed.

I install and maintain grid-tied and off-grid systems in my area and consult on solar system design/operation.
Location: 80 miles NE of Phoenix at 5500'

Re: New VFXRs, higher overnight loads

Post by fcwlp »

Max idle power is ~34W/inverter and ~9W/inverter when searching. Your current night time loads look similar to off-grid customers running multiple refrigerators and freezers.
Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1893
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
[***2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007-2020)]
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, ***replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: New VFXRs, higher overnight loads

Post by Mike Curran »

Thanks. My loads did not change from before installing the VFXRs. No added refrigerators, nada.

Also note my comment about SOC is not relevant, since I'm grid-tied and loads are being fed from grid, not battery, when grid is connected :oops:.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
raysun
Forum Emperor
Posts: 3326
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:57 am
My RE system: Flexpower Two: (2) FXR3048A, (2) FM80, MATE3s, FlexNetDC
SimpliPhi 48-3.8 (6 @ 48v)
Outback IBR3 battery enclosure
Suniva 330 watt panels (12 - 6 strings of 2 in series)
Hyundai 355 watt panels (6 - 3 strings of 2 in series)
Honda EU7000is gas fuel generator

Re: New VFXRs, higher overnight loads

Post by raysun »

Mike Curran wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:08 am Thanks. My loads did not change from before installing the VFXRs. No added refrigerators, nada.

Also note my comment about SOC is not relevant, since I'm grid-tied and loads are being fed from grid, not battery, when grid is connected :oops:.
Interesting situation. Is Search enabled? Was it enabled on the GVFX?
User avatar
EA6LE-ONE
Forum Guru
Posts: 342
Joined: Tue May 05, 2020 7:51 am
My RE system: System 1:
MATE3s, 3 x Radian GS8048A,
4 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10,
2 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 4 x FLEXware ICS Plus,
54 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W

System 2:
MATE3s, 2 x VFX3648,
2 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10
1 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 2 x FLEXware ICS
21 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W
Location: Providenciales, Turks & Caicos Isl.

Re: New VFXRs, higher overnight loads

Post by EA6LE-ONE »

the VFX don't measure the loads power well. I have a big difference between VFX and the power meter. while using power from grid seems to measure the loads correctly.
Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1893
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
[***2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007-2020)]
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, ***replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: New VFXRs, higher overnight loads

Post by Mike Curran »

@Raysun
Interesting situation. Is Search enabled? Was it enabled on the GVFX?
Search is not enabled on the new inverters, they are just "on". On the GVFX, search is always on.

@Ea6leONE
the VFX don't measure the loads power well. I have a big difference between VFX and the power meter. while using power from grid seems to measure the loads correctly.
I am using power from grid so if your experience applies then the higher load consumption indicated by Optics is correct.

Fyi, today my daytime load is also higher than before the swap. Again, no change in loads themselves. On 11/19, total load was 3.2kwh. So far today with 6+ hours to go, load totals 5.5kwh.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
User avatar
EA6LE-ONE
Forum Guru
Posts: 342
Joined: Tue May 05, 2020 7:51 am
My RE system: System 1:
MATE3s, 3 x Radian GS8048A,
4 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10,
2 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 4 x FLEXware ICS Plus,
54 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W

System 2:
MATE3s, 2 x VFX3648,
2 x FLEXmax 100, HUB10
1 x EnergyCell 48V 2700RE,
1 x FLEXnet DC, 2 x FLEXware ICS
21 x PANASONIC VBHN325SA17 325W
Location: Providenciales, Turks & Caicos Isl.

Re: New VFXRs, higher overnight loads

Post by EA6LE-ONE »

That means the new inverters are reporting the load consumption correctly. My VFXs are reporting almost half the real consumption. for a 35kWh solar day was reported only 18kWh usage.
so what you see now is probably the correct usage.
fcwlp
Forum Czar
Posts: 648
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:40 am
My RE system: GS8048A, FM80 w/3,600W PV Fixed, FM80 w/2,700W on Zomeworks tracker, Mate3, 24 Trojan 2V L16 1100AH @ C20, Grid-Tied with Kohler 14RESA LPG Generator and MEP-803 Diesel if needed.

I install and maintain grid-tied and off-grid systems in my area and consult on solar system design/operation.
Location: 80 miles NE of Phoenix at 5500'

Re: New VFXRs, higher overnight loads

Post by fcwlp »

You could measure the AC out current with the inverter on and the inverter bypassed. My guess is they will be close.
Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1893
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
[***2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007-2020)]
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, ***replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: New VFXRs, higher overnight loads

Post by Mike Curran »

EA6LE-ONE wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:53 pm That means the new inverters are reporting the load consumption correctly. My VFXs are reporting almost half the real consumption. for a 35kWh solar day was reported only 18kWh usage.
so what you see now is probably the correct usage.
Yup, yesterday's load consumption was 8kwh, vs. 3.2kwh on 11/19, before the swap.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1893
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
[***2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007-2020)]
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, ***replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: New VFXRs, higher overnight loads

Post by Mike Curran »

fcwlp wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:01 pm You could measure the AC out current with the inverter on and the inverter bypassed. My guess is they will be close.
fcwlp, can you be more specific on your suggestion? I get what AC OUT current is, but "inverter on"? Is that with grid disconnected? And is "inverter bypassed" with grid connected, passing thru the inverter to loads?
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
fcwlp
Forum Czar
Posts: 648
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:40 am
My RE system: GS8048A, FM80 w/3,600W PV Fixed, FM80 w/2,700W on Zomeworks tracker, Mate3, 24 Trojan 2V L16 1100AH @ C20, Grid-Tied with Kohler 14RESA LPG Generator and MEP-803 Diesel if needed.

I install and maintain grid-tied and off-grid systems in my area and consult on solar system design/operation.
Location: 80 miles NE of Phoenix at 5500'

Re: New VFXRs, higher overnight loads

Post by fcwlp »

That was not my clearest instruction.
Measure the AC out current and voltage:
  • With the inverter on and grid connected. In other words normal operation.
  • With the inverter bypassed so grid is connected to the AC out.
Calculate the power. I know Mike knows how but for others, power in watts is the multiplication of the voltage and current values (i.e., P = i*V).
Mike Curran
Forum Emperor
Posts: 1893
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:28 pm
My RE system: Outback - Garage roof:
- 8 (2x4) Evergreen 180's into one FM80 (2007/2020 - replaced MX60)
- 6 (2×3) ALEO S79-300's into one FM80 (2017)
[***2 grid-tied GVFX3524's classic stacked for 120/240VAC (2007-2020)]
- 2 grid-tied VFXR3524A-01's series stacked, ***replaced GVFX's (2020)
- 12 Surrette/Rolls 2V x 1766Ah (2007)
- Hub10.3, Mate3s, FNDC, RTS, OpticsRE. Tigo Energy ES maximizers on each PV module.

Westinghouse Solar - Barn roof: (2012)
- 30 (2x15) 235W panels with Enphase M215 microinverters, grid-tied

Outback Skybox - Barn roof: (2019)
- 14 Talesun 275W in series (DC array input to SB inverter/charger)
- 3 SimpliPhi 3.8 batteries, 48V, 225Ah total
- AC coupled input (manual switch during grid outage only) from 14 Talesun 275W,
Enphase M215 microinverters, normally direct grid tied

All self-designed and self-installed
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio

Re: New VFXRs, higher overnight loads

Post by Mike Curran »

Been thinking about this...aside from somewhat difficult access to the L1 and L2 conductors (plus having to measure both), seems like this would only be a snapshot. Since my largest backed up loads are mostly intermittent (e.g., fridge, well & sump pumps) wouldn't I need to record voltage and current over a longer period, say at least an hour, to get an accurate assessment? Right now I'm beginning to think Ea6le-ONE is right and leave it go at that.
http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?95b2dca2-ca6c
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Hctc107221
fcwlp
Forum Czar
Posts: 648
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:40 am
My RE system: GS8048A, FM80 w/3,600W PV Fixed, FM80 w/2,700W on Zomeworks tracker, Mate3, 24 Trojan 2V L16 1100AH @ C20, Grid-Tied with Kohler 14RESA LPG Generator and MEP-803 Diesel if needed.

I install and maintain grid-tied and off-grid systems in my area and consult on solar system design/operation.
Location: 80 miles NE of Phoenix at 5500'

Re: New VFXRs, higher overnight loads

Post by fcwlp »

You are right on the snapshot. A kill-a-watt meter would be more useful, especially for the fridge. We have a backup 15 year old refrigerator/freezer that draws 3.6kWh per day. We don't have sump pumps in AZ. :grin: But I do not know what they are from growing up in WI.
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