Grid Tie status

Discussion about the FX2000 Inverter
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SteveB

Grid Tie status

Post by SteveB »

Hey Good Day all.

I was just wondering how things are looking for final grid tie go ahead. 'Haven't heard much since July.

Thanks
wheelema

Grid Tie status

Post by wheelema »

Yes! Please advise.
Mark
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Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:01 pm

Grid Tie status

Post by Mark »

Sure would like to use sell mode. Whens it going to happen?
arnold
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Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2002 11:01 pm
My RE system: Current: 10.9 kW STC (128 BP-585), 4 MX60, 3 GVFX, 4 Concorde PVX-12255
2.46 kW STC (12 KD205GX-LP), Xantrex GT2.8
Previous (still owned): 9.1 kW STC (108 BP-585), 6 SB 3048, 2 SW5048, 8 Concorde PVX-12255

Grid Tie status

Post by arnold »

First the disclaimer. I have no connection with Outback except as a interested future customer. I have PV system that was designed to be grid interactive using Outback equipment. It is currently functional with Xantrex STRX-2500UPG inverters. I am eagerly waiting for the release of the version of the FX with sell capability.

To that end I have been following the development of the FX. *My* personal guess is won't be too long. Here is why I think this.

Christopher has indicated they made a decision to get the "other" things right first. This would include stacking ability, generator control, etc. Now that we are seeing these features ship I can believe that the grid-interactive with sell version is coming soon.

The WinverterFX shows grid selling as feature. This suggests some work has already be done in this area.

Outback has given some hints before on possible dates. However I haven't seen anything specific recently. The most recent statement that I that I have read is "It will be ready when it is ready... "

That is probably the most accurate statement that can be made, although not very satisfying. Now just for entertaintment value I would predict that we will see grid sell before the end of November.

arnold
Mike W
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Location: Seattle WA
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Grid Tie status

Post by Mike W »

Well, November has come & gone . . . anybody at Outback willing to drop a hint?

I am currently grid-tied with a Trace PS2524. I guess my installation was utility-approved before the "addendum" to the PS manual that stated it was not for utility inter-tie use. My system has been operational for 2 years w/o problems, however I have been dissappointed in the NOISE produced in "sell mode" and look forward to switching to an FX2000 or VFX3524 at the earlier opportunity.

Waiting patiently for news of the next big thing . . .

Mike W
Robin Gudgel

Grid Tie status

Post by Robin Gudgel »

OK, OK, OK.
We have the ETL inspector scheduled to be here from Dec 17 through the 23rd. We hope this will be sufficient to run all the tests? There are four different units, so it takes a fair amount of time. The anti-islanding test for instance requires 80 different tests for each inverter. Greg is busy finishing the code. Dooba just finished writing and submitting the test plan to ETL today. ETL has two additional days scheduled just to review the test plan. Geez! We expect this to be a very highly scrutinized inverter by our not so friendly competitors. It will also be tested by some very powerful government agencies (like Sandia) that just gave a million dollars to Xantrex to go develop an inverter just like ours in Canada that will be built in China. They are not acting in Americans best interest, nor have they been fair to OutBack. The motives of these agencies and companies is questionable at best. Remember when Trace lost their UL approval? That was never over a safety issue! That was your government and UL wielding their heavy hammer. We do not plan on giving them the satisfaction of finding anything wrong. The testing must be done and documented to show we did our homework, (and it will be). We find ETL to be much more competent in their testing than any of these other bodies by the way. We have experience with all of them.

We are anticipating early January for shipping. After ETL is done, we need to order new labels and update the manual. There will be production test equipment to acquire also. Hang in there, we are really really close.
Here is a list of the anticipated models. Some of the final power testing won't be finalized until the actual ETL tests.
Model GTFX2524 sealed 2500W 24VDC w/Turbo $1995
Model GTFX3048 sealed 3000W? 48VDC w/Turbo $2345
Model GVFX3524 vented 3500W (3300W sell) $2345
Model GVFX 3648 vented 3600W (3400w sell) $2345
arnold
Forum Guru
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2002 11:01 pm
My RE system: Current: 10.9 kW STC (128 BP-585), 4 MX60, 3 GVFX, 4 Concorde PVX-12255
2.46 kW STC (12 KD205GX-LP), Xantrex GT2.8
Previous (still owned): 9.1 kW STC (108 BP-585), 6 SB 3048, 2 SW5048, 8 Concorde PVX-12255

Grid Tie status

Post by arnold »

Wow, cool. Thanks for the update! Crossing my fingers and toes.

Can't wait, it's just like waiting for Christmas morning. . . [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

arnold
ericwahl
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Posts: 132
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My RE system: (9) SW230mono, XW-60-MPPT, SW5548
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Grid Tie status

Post by ericwahl »

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Robin Gudgel:
<strong>
It will also be tested by some very powerful government agencies (like Sandia) that just gave a million dollars to Xantrex to go develop an inverter just like ours in Canada that will be built in China. They are not acting in Americans best interest, nor have they been fair to OutBack.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">While I'm sure you are correct, I'm curious, did you apply for the funding? It was clearly going to be unfair from the outset. I remember submitting an email or message saying "you guys should apply for this since you're already doing it". Was it a case of not enough resources? Believe me I understand.
Robin Gudgel

Grid Tie status

Post by Robin Gudgel »

We have been in contact with Sandia from time to time for the past 10 years. When inquiring about funding, their pat answer is that "there is no funding at this time".

We were not contacted that the 1 million dollar Xantrex grant was available, even though they were well aware that we were developing the FX inverter. The FX is exactly what the grant was supposed to develop. Sandia managed to fund a foreign corporation for development of a foreign designed and built inverter to compete with US companies.

We are no longer interested in talking to Sandia about anything.
ericwahl
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My RE system: (9) SW230mono, XW-60-MPPT, SW5548
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Grid Tie status

Post by ericwahl »

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Robin Gudgel:
<strong>The FX is exactly what the grant was supposed to develop. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I know that's why I posted it here because it was actually humorous (if you were familiar with the FX). But now I remember - I deleted it immediately, thinking it was sort of unseemly to post something like that and surely you already knew about it. Bizarre. [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

<small>[ December 13, 2003, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: Eric W. ]</small>
DavidB
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Posts: 246
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Grid Tie status

Post by DavidB »

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Eric W.:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Robin Gudgel:
<strong>The FX is exactly what the grant was supposed to develop. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I know that's why I posted it here because it was actually humorous (if you were familiar with the FX). But now I remember - I deleted it immediately, thinking it was sort of unseemly to post something like that and surely you already knew about it. Bizarre. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]
boB

Grid Tie status

Post by boB »

Oops ! Nevermind...
This post intentionally left blank
[img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
boB

<small>[ December 17, 2003, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: boB Gudgel ]</small>
flaplante
Forum Whiz
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2003 11:01 pm
My RE system: - Panels 3512 watts in 5-72v strings:
6-PhotoWatt PW1000, 12v, 100w ea in series
6-PhotoWatt PW750, 12v, 90w ea in series
6-Evergreen EC-102, 12v, 100w ea in series
4-Evergreen EC-180, 18v, 180w ea in series
4-Schott Poly235, 18v, 235w ea in series
total nominal output 3412 watts

- Batteries: 24v, 900ah 16-Trojan 6v 225ah T105-RE,
- Inverter: 2-Outback GVFX3524, both with FW 001.100.000
- Chg Cntlr: 2-Flex80, #1 w/FW 002.000.000, #2 w/FW 002.001.000
- Metering: Outback FlexDC w/FW 001.000.070
- System Control: Outback MATE3 w/FW 002.004.009
- Monitor Software: homegrown web app pulling data from Mate3
Location: Mercer, Maine (N. of Augusta)
Contact:

Grid Tie status

Post by flaplante »

Will it be possible to have a master GTFX2524 and a slave FX2024? Reason for the question is partly cost and partly to let me go ahead and start putting together my SW2512 replacement system. If a mix is possible then I would go with the FX now and later on add the GTFX making it the master at that time. With the panels I have now and expect any time in forseeable future, I would not need a larger grid tie than 2500 watts. But I do see occasional needs for more AC output (simultaneous motor starting, etc.) than a single FX might handle.

A related qustion, I suppose, is will a X240 be needed on the line side in such a case, as well as one on the AC output.

Fred
David C. Brearley

Grid Tie status

Post by David C. Brearley »

Happy Solstice, Hippie Holidays & Seasoned Greetings (garlic and herb) from the crew at EO. We look forward to integrating our first GT inverter. Hope the testing is moving smoothly and successfully towards completion. Breaker a leg! Best wishes for a prosperous 2004. [img]images/smiles/converted/sun_smiley.gif[/img]
Robin Gudgel

Grid Tie status

Post by Robin Gudgel »

ETL testing has is now complete. There was one minor hiccup that was corrected. We passed all tests for four model numbers. The inspector is writing up the final report. It then must be reviewed by ETL coorporate in New York. They will then issue the authorization to mark.
In the mean time we are finishing the non-gridtie aspects of the new inverter. Stacking in particular. The grid tie inverters will not stack with the off-grid versions. We had to change things quite a bit to meet the Grid tie specs. This has resulted in an incompatibility. We aren't sure the UL standard would actually allow a line tie inverter to be stacked with a non-grid tie version anyway.

Hang in there. We are now accepting orders for the line tie versions by the way.

They will be in short supply for a while. The extra UL required production testing must be done in a different building from the assembly plant.

By the way, the preliminary testing shows that our system using one GFX or GVFX inverter, an MX60 and 4 Concorde group 31 batteries produces about 5% less power than a Sunny Boy. That isn't bad! Some battery-less inverters don't do that good. More testing to come during the month of January.
wd8cdh
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Location: Long Island NY

Grid Tie status

Post by wd8cdh »

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Robin Gudgel:
<strong>By the way, the preliminary testing shows that our system using one GFX or GVFX inverter, an MX60 and 4 Concorde group 31 batteries produces about 5% less power than a Sunny Boy.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wow, only a 5% hit with batteries. Looks like you are tightly controlling the charge-discharge of the batteries. That should give longer battery life than the other battery/grid-tie solutions.

Sure is better than my ST and SW to get grid tie with backup.

Congradulations.
Christopher

Grid Tie status

Post by Christopher »

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Ron Schroeder:
[QB][QUOTE]

Sure is better than my ST and SW to get grid tie with backup. [QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That was the idea!

Thanks for the support, Ron
Christopher

Grid Tie status

Post by Christopher »

We nailed down the efficiency numbers for the new grid-tie versions of the FX and VFX inverters.

Using the California rules - the rated efficiency at 75% of rated power will be as follows:

48 vdc models (GTFX3048 & GVFX3648) 0.92 - 92%

24 vdc models (GTFX2524 & GVFX3524) 0.91 - 91%

This compares to 93/94% for the SMA inverters, 92% for the Sharp, 90% for the Beacon and 88/89% for the Xantrex SW models.

http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/erprebate/eligible_inverters.html

<small>[ January 09, 2004, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Christopher Freitas ]</small>
wd8cdh
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Posts: 131
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2002 11:01 pm
Location: Long Island NY

Grid Tie status

Post by wd8cdh »

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Christopher Freitas:
<strong>We nailed down the efficiency numbers for the new grid-tie versions of the FX and VFX inverters.

Using the California rules - the rated efficiency at 75% of rated power will be as follows:

48 vdc models (GTFX3048 & GVFX3648) 0.92 - 92%

24 vdc models (GTFX2524 & GVFX3524) 0.91 - 91%

This compares to 93/94% for the SMA inverters, 92% for the Sharp, 90% for the Beacon and 88/89% for the Xantrex SW models.

http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/erprebate/eligible_inverters.html</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hi Christopher,

What is the Xantrex STXR under California's rules?

Ron

<small>[ January 12, 2004, 05:51 AM: Message edited by: Ron Schroeder ]</small>
Solar Guppy
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Grid Tie status

Post by Solar Guppy »

Hi Ron,

its 90% for the UPG (GP) , so were probably about 1%-2% better than the MX/FX combo in net deleivered watts , but to be fair , we would have to run side-by-side tests to see if there are other factors that favor one over the other.

Also I don't know if the numbers posted for the vented FX includes their fans watts or what AC voltage they tested at. In the Suntie we lose about 12 watts to the fan (ac powered).

SMA is telling people to use a fan (sunny breeze , my name by the way !) in hot climates to help with thermal derating but this is not included in there effientcy numbers.

Frankly there are lots of things left out on the CA spec , like what are AC/DC voltages. Are the tests on a solar simulator or a DC supply , the tolerance to 120hz ripple can have a big effect on true mppt tracking.

Nothing is mentioned to test the reaction time to isonalation effects either , the sunnyboy is good at tracking , but is pretty slow , in partly cloudy conditions with rapid isonalation changes my Suntie beats the sunnyboy yeild because the GP is very agressive in re-tracking , again , this isn't even a thought in the CA numbers

Henry
wheelema

Grid Tie status

Post by wheelema »

If the grid intertie cannot stack with non-grid intertie, than are those users who purchase/d the non-grid model anticipating upgrading to grid-tie out of luck?
Robin Gudgel

Grid Tie status

Post by Robin Gudgel »

We have always anticipated upgrading the off-grid units to grid tie status. We just did not know what was involved. Now we do. Sealed FX inverters will cost $350 to upgrade. You will get a 2500 watt 24v unit or a 3000 watt 48v unit in the process. We will be adding a Turbo as part of the upgrade. All sealed line tie inverters will get the Turbo as standard hardware. Vented units will cost $250.00. Older units will be getting a complete replacement of boards. (a very nice improvement in performance) Newer units will get modifications and all the necessary code changes. The customer must first call and secure an RMA number. The customer must send in a check for the correct amount with the inverter. We pay return shipping. We cannot just send boards out to upgrade. UL requires testing in the factory. Please wait until the end on January to insure things are going smooth in the field. This is a very major change to the inverter. No matter how thorough we test it, there is still risk. Beta testing is going on at this minute. If the customer also has an MX60, they may want to send it in at the same time. We have made some minor changes that better coordinate the selling process. The cost for this is $50.00 for s/n's above 500 and $150.00 for below sn500. The Mate upgrade will include all of the enhancements to date, not just line tie.
The Mate will need to be upgraded for line tie also. No charge for Mate upgrades. An RMA is required for both the Mate and MX60 upgrade though. It helps us to keep things straight.
E-mail or call me direct if you need additional information.
Robin Gudgel
rgudgel@outbackpower.com
Phone 360-435-6030
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